Eat Your Broccoli: What Media Literacy Misses About Young People

CORY BARKER: In November 2023, a document written more than twenty years earlier suddenly re-entered the public conversation: Osama bin Laden’s Letter to America. The reason wasn’t a history class or a news documentary. It was TikTok. Videos referencing the letter began circulating widely on the platform, with creators reading excerpts, reacting to its arguments, and debating its claims—often stripped of historical context. The trend drew enough attention that TikTok ultimately removed videos and hashtags related to the letter, while news outlets including Vox and The Guardian reported on how and why it was spreading. In this case, a primary source tied to one of the most consequential events in modern history resurfaced not through curriculum or journalism, but through an algorithm, reaching social media users, many of them young people. For adults watching this happen, the reaction was often alarm. Why are kids seeing this? Who’s teaching them? What are they being influenced by? But those questions rest on a familiar assumption: that young people are passive recipients of information, simply absorbing whatever appears in their feeds. What if that assumption is wrong? What if moments like this are actually part of how young people begin forming civic identities, testing ideas, negotiating values, and figuring out where they stand?

MATT JORDAN: That’s the focus of research by Rachel Besharat Mann. She’s an Associate Professor of the Practice at Wesleyan University whose work examines media literacy, adolescent development, and how K–12 students engage with news in social media environments. Rather than asking only what young people are consuming, her work asks how they’re making meaning, and why identity and belonging matter as much as facts. We’re going to talk with her about how young people encounter news through peers and platforms, what adults often misunderstand about youth media use, and what it actually means to support civic learning in a digital world shaped by algorithms, emotion, and social context. Rachel Besharat Mann, welcome to News Over Noise.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Thanks for having me.

MATT JORDAN: One of the things we've discussed on this show a lot is news avoidance as something that hinders the ability of the public to deliberate in a democracy. And one of the most news avoidant demographics, according to the Pew Center and other research firms, are young people and young adults. Are young people avoiding the news, as Pew indicates? And why?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, I think the answer is yes, they are. But to an extent, right? I think what they're looking for is exerting some control over what they see in a way that they couldn't do otherwise without social media. So, most of them, in at least in my participants over the course of my studies, have shown that they see news on social media, and they actively will ignore people whose opinions A. may differ from theirs or B. they deem harmful in some way, whatever that means for the individual. It seems like they cleanse their algorithm when they feel like they're getting too much… too much news that might affect them emotionally. But the big thing that I'm seeing is that they are looking down at social media news outlets in a way that they think it might not be critically as impressive as other news sources. So, when they are consuming news through social media, they are going to the typical culprit. They're looking at New York Times, they're looking at NPR. Right? And what they're doing is that they're skimming the headlines and they're really cherry picking what they're looking at.

MATT JORDAN: So, they're negotiating through the process of choice and algorithm what it is they see for the sake of wellness?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, there's a big emphasis on this wellness idea that they're being bombarded with a lot of information that sometimes they don't want to see. And it's not only wellness, but oftentimes they feel like a lot of the information they're seeing through these platforms specifically is performative. And so, they're deeming it more as an opinion than as fact, which is why I believe they're clinging to these typical news sources, even though social media platforms.

CORY BARKER: Through your answer there, it made me think about just the way in which they're differentiating between, you know, a localized organic content creator on an Instagram or TikTok versus looking at CNN or The New York Times. In your previous answer right there, you talked about kind of the sense of distrust or performativity in those more conventional content creators may be talking about the news. Are there other things that have come up in your interviews as far as why they distrust, or at least are skeptical of, more influencer or content creator conversation about the news versus more conventional news outlets who might also have accounts on Instagram and TikTok?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yes. So, one of the big things that I think is coming up, and maybe this is just me thinking that they are regurgitating a lot of maybe very traditional media literacy curriculum that they're seeing in school, right? That social media creates echo chamber is a lot of our participants talked about these echo chambers, whether they call them echo boxes or echo chambers or bubbles. So, they kind of realize that a lot of these individual content creators are coming from an opinion-based space, right? Which is what social media being for. And as it is. Right? It's just when we see these high numbers of people consuming news through social media platforms, only adults and young people, to an extent, we hope that they have this sort of quest for truth. But yeah, that that's what I'm seeing a lot that they realize there's an echo chamber. And so, they are more questioning of what they're seeing. But at the same time, they seem to enjoy an echo chamber because they don't really want to hear things that are at odds with what they firmly believe.

CORY BARKER: And is there something that they say about the type of content that the more conventional news outlets are producing in these social platforms spaces that makes them feel like those places are more legitimate? Or do you feel like that that is just a part of them having heard or, you know, experience or second hand that, well, The New York Timesand NPR credible. So, I should check what's going on there in sort of a breaking news context.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, one of the big things that I think really speaks to that question is a lot of our participants refer to, and I think this kind of combines what I've been saying, the performativity of these, of a lot of the content creators, the sharing of infographics, AI generated imagery. Right? They referred to, people sharing the black square during the Black Lives Matter movement. Right? Those sorts of things that they felt like are less informational and are really kind of to draw viewers and to think about discourse in the comments versus original reporting, where they're getting information from the ground. And so, they feel like and they also for… to their spaces on social media, they're looking a lot at stories on social media and those quick kind of the things that you go through very quickly, rather than sifting through accounts and their grid posts where they're looking at, maybe there could be a little bit more content there. And I think the last thing is a lot of those content creators are linking out to things like The New York Times, and so they feel like that's kind of the ground where the real reporting is happening.

MATT JORDAN: And do they do they leave the social media platform very much. I mean, do they link out or do they stay pretty much on the platform?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, this is a really positive thing that I'm seeing. When our participants are seeing something that they want to know more about. They are definitely leaving the platform, but they are going to those websites that they have deemed already credible. Right? They're going to The New York Times; they're going to NPR. Those are the two big ones that come up a lot. But I think it also should be said that the last time we collected data on this was about six months ago. So, I'm wondering what that looks like now with, the incredible explosion of independent reporting that's been happening through social media, which is something that we're going to attend to very soon.

CORY BARKER: If we can think of a little bit more broadly, what's your sense through these interviews and conversations with young people of how they feel about social media platforms overall? Right? Not just in the role of news being delivered to them, or content creators discussing news topics. How do they feel about the existence of social platforms in their lives?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, this is interesting. So, in our latest study, we did get a lot of information on how they're conceptualizing these spaces. Right? And it's almost like a push and pull. They are very aware of how pervasive these spaces are in their lives. They know that their social lives exist here. They know this is where they're getting most of their information. They also feel this outside judgment on them from other generations, from institutions, right. In schools, they're hearing, you know, your phone, they're hearing these narratives about them, their generation. And when I say that, I mean, you know, kids who are currently in high school and middle school and even college students, right? They feel this narrative that everyone thinks they're on their phones, that they're scrolling, that they're doing limited reading. Right. And they are pushing back against that. They don't want to be seen as that. And they're recognizing that social media exists and that it has a lot of shortfalls. And I think that they're to amplify their voices a little bit. They're pushing back. And they want, you know, other institutions and generations to understand that they're doing great things in these spaces. But sometimes they are doing mind numbing stuff. Right? So, they're conceptual, like they understand that it's not that serious of a space. And they kept saying it over and over again. And actually, this is interesting. As we were collecting data, I had to pull back from being the one to collect the data from young people, as they were doing, you know, they were thinking aloud through their social media usage, and my research assistant had to do it because they were performing for me as an older person about what I wanted to see. And it was so interesting because every other sentence was, well, you know, I'm not on here that often, and I would never look at this because I think it's not credible. And the ways that that changed when my younger undergraduate research assistants got practice doing this—

CORY BARKER: Well, and it seems like it seems like in my our conversations with our students, this is happening all the time, right? Like we come to those conversations with the sense that older generations are putting these kind of stereotypical assumptions on what younger people are doing with these platforms, and they agree with that. But then when they're talking about their experiences, right, they'll either say, well, I, I don't really do it this way, or I know that other people do, or my younger siblings are even worse. You know, I was just having a conversation with students this week. Is that is that something that you feel like is just inherent in how we feel about our own technology use and thinking about how other people are perceiving of that? Or do you feel like that? That's pressure that's coming to them from parents or teachers. And so, they're trying to perform it, or is it all of those things?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, I think it's a little bit of all of that, coupled with the fact that these this is an area, this is an age group that is really in the throes of identity development. So, they're constantly negotiating that out loud with themselves and with their immediate environment. Right. So, I think they're getting the messaging from the major institutions that are that they are in right there at school. They're dealing with their home life. Right. They're dealing with their peers to an extent, who are also getting the same message. So, I think it's a constant identity negotiation with them. I think they're trying to find their footing. And I think that the messaging is becoming very internal. I also think that there's, there's a media aspect of it too. Right? There's a lot of information about screen time and short-form content that flows through social media that they're seeing, and then they're seeing media representations through television shows and movies of people on their phone. And, you know, whether it's an attention issue or whether it's ignoring other people. Right? They're seeing that, internalizing it and trying to push back.

MATT JORDAN: So, in a sense, it sounds like what you're describing is that their media literacy, insofar as they're aware of all these bad things, kind of creates for them almost like a superego that they're aware of and they're negotiating. They're just choices in relation to that. And that seems pretty normal for adolescent development, right? That where your mom says, don't do that. And we say, I know I should do that, but no way, mom. So, but I'm wondering, just like you would ask yourself, their awareness of that, does that change their behavior at all in other words, they're are they're aware that maybe they shouldn't be rotting. That's my favorite term that my, my kid likes to use in relation to that, because he's aware that there's something about scrolling on TikTok that is not good, so he uses the verb rot. So, he's aware of it, but I still think he rots on TikTok a lot. So, is that is that part of the negotiation?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. It's, and, you know, we do this as adults. I mean, I least I do, right? You know, I know this is bad for me to be on the screen right before I go to bed. And I do you know what? I want to cosign what you just said. Because I do believe that they are very aware, which I think is something that adults and educators and parents need to know. Like young people are aware of these narratives and they do. I love that term super ego, right? They have this meta awareness, but they are not always attending to it. Right. Because and I think that there's a lot of social constraints here. A lot of the social work in their lives is happening through these spaces. And so there is this element of, if I'm not here, if I'm not available, I'm not going to be included in this space. Or alternatively, a lot of schools have, you know, social media feeds that alert them to different events and things. So, they feel that they need to be in those spaces. I also do think, and especially a lot of our participants are our students currently, whether they're undergraduate students here, or their high school students, they have a lot going on. Right? So, they're constantly, you know, between school, work, social stuff, clubs, athletics. Once they get a chance to unwind, that phone is their best space to do that. And so regardless of how they feel about these messages, they're going to write, as you say, because it just makes them feel like, okay, I can shut down for a moment.

CORY BARKER: In the piece that you recently published that that we read, you conclude with a point that young people tend to trust the quote unquote, fairness of the algorithm on social media. Can you share a little bit more about how they expressed that perception of fairness in your sessions with them?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So in the algorithm, this was the my favorite finding in this paper, right? This this space that we're calling the reciprocal algorithmic manipulation. Right. Where they believe that they are exerting a lot of control over their algorithm. They anthropomorphize the algorithm over and over again. Right? “My algorithm is good. My algorithm is bad. I can train my algorithm to do this. My algorithm is getting faulty today.” Right? This is the things that they would say. And they knew how to address those problems. And they understood that, you know, and they all were hyper aware that “Oh, if I talk about this, my algorithm will change.” And so they were very trusting in the fact that they had control over these algorithms, and they were very trusting that their algorithms would learn their patterns in a way that, again, they could control. I think it all comes down to and, you know, being also a developmental is right. I think a lot about their development of independence and their need for autonomy. Right. So I think this is an outlet where they can support that, but I think they aren't as aware of how little control they might really have over it when it comes to economic marketing and targeting through algorithms. Right? And I think through their influencer content, they're not as aware of, you know, how really targeted they can be through multiple spaces, through email, through discussion, through buying patterns. I do think they believe they have more control, even though they do trust in this fairness of the algorithm.And I, I do believe as the AI conversation grows and grows, they become a little bit less. They are becoming a little bit less trusting of this fairness. So I don't know. Yeah.

CORY BARKER: That's a really great way to put it, because it seems like the social platform companies have done such an amazing job over the last 10 to 15 years of convincing the general public, whether you're a content creator or just a consumer, that there is a level of meritocracy here that you're going to be able to as a creator, you're going to be able to sort of rise through the ranks if you follow these particular steps and do it in the right way. And as a consumer, you're going to be able to learn what you like and be able to control, you know, what you don't like and filter those things out. But they've almost, you know, with their obsession with AI, they're almost pushing that too far. Where the general public writ large, I think, is starting to sense and see the manipulation happening a little bit more clearly, where the types of content that we're seeing on these platforms is just not anything that anyone asked for it, in contrast to maybe previous generations of whatever the algorithm was giving to us.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, and it's interesting. We had students in a this is in a classroom setting, and we're thinking about it in a larger area. You know, I'm very interested in identity construction and development. And so we had them kind of algorithmically map their identities. They went through all their different platforms and kind of made lists of all the things that as if their algorithm was another person. I'm perpetuating the mutation of it, as if their algorithm was another person looking at them. What do they think of them? Right? So what is the algorithm saying about them? And so then they compared how they viewed themselves to how the algorithm views them. And some students really found that it was spot on and others were like, this is you know, I'm not into [inaudible] or whatever it was. And I just felt like it was really interesting to have them come face to face with really thinking about the algorithm as a human being, tracking their movements and thinking about who they are.

MATT JORDAN: One of the kind of frames that people have used to think about this as a news finds me mentality, right, that the, the algorithm knows what everybody needs in terms of the news content related to your disposition, your personality or whatever. And so it feeds it to you. Do you think that they have a certain confidence that the algorithm will provide in that sense?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yes, definitely. And I also think there's another nuance there. I think, this becomes very platform specific. Right? They go to specific platforms for specific things immediately. If they're looking for… I need to be informed about what's happening right now. They are still going to X; Twitter. Right? They're still going there. They're looking at Instagram threads, right, for that immediate sort of, you know, written expression verses are they sifting through… and they're definitely not sifting through Facebook, but, sifting through Instagram and going through the photos and going to their creators, they're really going to those kind of like snippets sort of spaces. They also are going to Reddit to an extent there too, but that's more, search oriented. Where the other platforms, when we went through this, they are not searching specifically for things through any of these platforms, which I think speaks to your point. They are letting things find them through social media platforms.

MATT JORDAN: We’re talking about identity formation. And one of the identities that you are interested in in your work has been civic identity. Right?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah.

MATT JORDAN: So obviously we all have a developmental identity and it sounds like that's the one that they're most comfortable with. Right? How who how am I as a person in the world? How are how am I relating to things? How am I maybe deluding myself into thinking I have agency over my algorithm, etc., etc. but I wonder if there's a difference between that and something like a civic identity that they might be aware of, or maybe not aware of.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, so I think our findings during this study, which is kind of a preliminary study that's going to lead out or is currently leading out their civic conceptualizations of themselves, they exist along a few different lines, right? There's kind of their political identity in terms of what party, what ideological space they're identifying in, but also their responsibility as a citizen. So, it's kind of twofold here. And as a community member. Right? What are they supposed to do in their own communities? And I don't know how much they're recognizing their civic responsibilities in their small communities. Right? Like, this is how I'm enacting this through my school, right? They just think that that's part of their role-related selves. Right? But in terms of the larger, you know what? How am I going to vote? What am I thinking about this issue? I think that's where they tend to shut down because there's so much out there on social media and they're having a hard time sifting through the performative versus the informative. And that's something that I'm seeing when it comes to civic identity, because the other identity piece, right, like that, you're talking about, you know, the different things that they purchase, the things that they're interested in, you know, recreationally, that stuff is pretty fluid and it comes pretty naturally through those spaces. Right? That's what they're for; their social connections. I think the civic stuff is a little bit different for them. And I think that's also as a result of their developmental stage. Right? They're adolescents and young adults. Which university students, they're definitely a continuation of, of adolescence, right? These emerging adults. And the fact that they're still in the university setting. Right? They don't really know the world as well as they think they do. Right? So they when they hear these opinions on these larger scale things that don't necessarily affect them, I think they have a hard time when they're being inundated with all of this information processing it.

MATT JORDAN: So do you think they develop a sense of the I don't know if the public good or of like public interest or anything like that, that you would say is an important feature of a civic identity?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So this is one thing that I'm toying with, but I don't know if my participants in my findings necessarily support this beautifully. But as a tan gentile. So I do think that social media has the potential to highlight that social good. And I'll use one example that a few of our participants not enough to have it be a real finding, but they were talking about Reddit as a platform and how there's a lot of crowdsourcing in Reddit. You know, help me choose my new pair of glasses. Help me choose this. And the and they always commented about how the commenters in these spaces come together and discuss in a way that feels so much more nurturing and caring than other platforms. Right? So in places like Instagram and X and these other platforms that they do go to get more information, it seems like they're yearning for that. And so when they see it, they highlighted immediately. So they'll bring it to your attention. I love when I can go to the comments and see people come to a consensus about this or see, you know, people sharing ideas. And when they said that, they would go to the comments themselves to see what people were saying, right. That gives me hope that social media can be leveraged in that way to give this idea of the public good. The other thing isn't that it is, exposing them to multiple perspectives, which we know from the literacy research and, you know, social studies research and all that, that that really helps build empathy and this understanding of public good in that way. So I can't really I know that I'm beating around the bush on your question because I feel like I can't answer it definitively because it's from my specific studies. But from what I read and from the preliminary findings, I think, yes, it can be, but maybe we're not doing a great job of leveraging that yet.

CORY BARKER: Related to identity creation. In your conversations with young people, is there a sense that, like news consumption is at all central to their identity, or maybe even emerging news consumption as they're maybe getting a little bit older that they're realizing or recognizing for any number of reasons that they should be a news consumer, and that that should be a sort of core part of their identity in any way.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And I see this specifically with the university students. Right? They have a very specific idea about where they should be getting their news, how informed they should be, what discourses they should be participating in or not. Because we are seeing, you know, a decline in them actually participating in that commentary. But yes, they have a very specific idea of what an intellectual news consumer looks like. And it is not somebody who's getting their news from social media, even though that appears to be what they're doing most of the time. Right. But yes, they do have this idea in their head about what it looks like.

MATT JORDAN: One of the things that I find interesting, sifting through some of the pew stuff and whatnot, is that and this is something you describe, is that the generation that is most likely to use social media is also seems to be one of the lowest in terms of, what shall I say, credulity. They believe the least of what they read on social media. Whereas apparently my generation, Gen X is the most credulous of all the general, generations. We believe, apparently, every conspiracy theory that comes down from the pike. So, I guess one of the questions I have on this is whether the identity that is emerging through the social media use is a, what shall I say, like a deliberative, democratic disposition that kind of makes them want to learn more, or is one that is more cynical, that makes them kind of want to tune out and say, I don't believe much of anything.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, I think, I think it's the latter. I do believe they're becoming more cynical. And I think it's because of the sheer amount of information and the amount of creators that come into it through social media. Right. And I also think we have to take into consideration the climate in which they're growing up. Right? The inundation of the news cycles, right? The emotional turmoil that they're constantly facing. Right. Because of the availability of these platforms. So and I think also media literacy education as a whole. Right? It's all about credibility evaluation, right? Everything's about making judgment. You know, in the pilot study for this, every single student participating said, I make sure that the website says dot-edu or gov or else I don't think anything that they say is true. Right. So they have these very strict guidelines for what's true and what's not. And social media doesn't fit into that for them. And so I think that they struggle with thinking about that as a very real source of information. And I do think it's making them more cynical. And I think so that coupled with the performativity of a lot of the influencers and commentators that they follow, makes them more cynical. And I also think they're I think that they're more aware of the economic space, too. And, and, you know, because they do, things are marked as ad and, and promoted content, sponsored content. They're very aware of that. And I think this is a problem because we don't want them to become overly cynical to everything, but we also want them to develop real time skills to take that cynicism and be critical and evaluate and make decisions based on what they're seeing. And that's very difficult when they're young and they may have limited experiences with it.

CORY BARKER: On that point. And some of your previous research you found and talked a little bit about how young people also express a cynicism toward some of the training that they receive, either informally or formally, about how to navigate this information ecosystem. What does that cynicism about specifically media literacy education, how does that manifest? What sort of things are they saying and maybe then we can talk a little bit about how to potentially combat, you know, that cynicism as well in media literacy education.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Oh, great. Ask me to solve all the big problems. So. It actually is going to be sad to hear, but they generationally believe that their older teachers may not have an understanding of the media landscape that they're facing, even though we do. We know what's going on, but they believe that we don't really understand their processes that, you know, we didn't grow up with this, so we don't know. And I think that's their biggest sort of point. And I think coupled with the messaging that they're hearing, we don't want to you on your phone and stop doing it. And your phone’s… don't trust this. Right. These very and then and then also paired with the this scripted media literacy education that they often receive, I just don't think that they feel like it's authentic enough. And this is obviously not speaking for every teacher. I have seen some teachers do amazing work authentically with this in the classroom, right? A lot of teachers, actually. It's just I think sometimes kids have this picture of the generation gap and, you know, like every generation does. You don't understand what's going on in front of me. And in this case, it's on my phone.

MATT JORDAN: I think that I mean, that's interesting. I mean, I think what you're saying is borne out through sociology, right? That one of the driving factors is generational differentiation that kids want to say, I'm not like you, you don't understand me. All that, all that stuff. If media literacy then is associated with intergenerational discord or you don't understand me. Doesn't that become a problem for media literacy educators? You know, like, how is it that we can here's some knowledge I'm going to drop on you that I think will help. Won't there be an automatic kind of shut down? But if that's the case.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And so yes. And I think also to be fair, that is an issue when it comes to almost anything, right, that that teachers are bringing into the classroom. Right. And we find a way to make these things very authentic. I was in a k-through-12 classroom for a while. Right? You find a way to bring things, whether you're bringing in outside media, whether you're letting the, you know, you're valuing the kids voices and shaping, you know, that's code construction of knowledge that in the education field is so heavily valued by educators. I think that that is something that we can leverage and maybe I can solve the problem. But this is something that I've been thinking about a lot. Right? And being a few years removed from being in K through 12 schools, thinking about teachers, working with students. Right? Working in a space where, show me what you're doing, talk to me about your concerns. Let's work through them together. Right? There's some great work that a lot of researchers. Not a lot, but there is work that researchers are doing that's really centering this student voice. This the pushback that I was talking about at the beginning, showing what these kids want, what they want out of media literacy education, what they want adults to know about what they're doing on their screens. And, and what parameters they feel like they need. What, what limits and what support they need. And I think that that could be one way that media literacy education can rise to the occasion. And again, I seen teachers do this, and it's really beautiful when it happens.

CORY BARKER: Yeah. And it seems like to connect the, you know, Matt’s question in your answer. It does to some extent feel like the challenge is sort of bridging that divide that both sides of that potential conversation are bringing to it. You know, even in my experience in classes with students thinking about ways to, to do this, have this co construction of knowledge and think about our different relationships to screen or social media, you do still sense that a lot of the students are saying things that they feel like you want to hear about their use or generational use of technology in trying to, you know, destabilize that or destigmatize that and work them through. You know, I use all these screens in the same way, or I might not be on my phone 18 hours a day like you, but I'm on this other screen, you know, quite a lot. Right? And it's not just the screen itself or the device itself. That is the issue. It feels like that is such a an important thing that we're going to have to figure out moving forward is both sides maybe wanting to come to some sort of, middle ground, but figuring out how we come to that and maybe let our guard down in a way that allows for productive conversation and building of knowledge and comfortability.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And this is why I'm still mulling over. Right. And I, I have strong feelings on both sides of this. But when we talk about, like, cell phone bans and these sorts of, like extreme language surrounding this, I think part of me thinks that this could be a hindrance to this conversation. Right? It's like we're doing this contraband thing because you're not allowed to have cell phones, and you know that this is how we as adults are feeling about your cell phone usage rate. But then at the same time, I know that they can be an incredible distraction. But for me, and this is very easy for me to say in my little tower of higher education, because my students, you know, I can tell them, shut your computers, do this. Like we don't have any sweeping policy here. And they're very easygoing about all of this. I've almost never had a problem with cell phones or computers in class. You know, it's easy for me to say those conversations have been very organically in my classroom. And obviously the content that I teach really lends itself to it as well. But, you know, removing that barrier and also having, you know, students feeling a little bit more safe in those spaces to talk about their concerns helps me get into their heads. But then by the time they get to me, they're university students, right? So it would be nice to figure out a way to leverage that with younger kids, particularly as young. We're seeing kids as young as 9, 10 getting phones and getting on social media, and it's like, okay, we don't love it, but what are we going to do, right? You can't yell at parents for doing things, especially when there's extenuating circumstances that warrant that happening right? Travel going to different parents homes. Right? Parents have to make decisions for their kid. But how do we really get kids at a young enough age to really discuss with them what is happening and what they should be aware of.

CORY BARKER: In your interviews with young people, what do you feel like other than, “You don't understand, man,” what do you feel like young people most want older people? If we just have that basic binary to know about their experiences on social platforms, whether that's connected to news or otherwise, that that might be helpful for, you know, for our audience as they're listening to this, to think about either in their individual lives or just more broadly about the relationships between generations in these spaces.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, I think the one thing outside of the news consumption, I think the social aspect of social media is something that we all need to be really aware of, because they are having a lot of difficulty removing their social life from social media. But at the same time, I think that they want us to know, like, hey, I'm not always on my phone doing something stupid, right? I'm connecting with my friends. I'm creating a social life, right? I'm curating an image. I'm doing whatever I'm doing that is helping me socially make sense of what's going on around me. And also at the same time. And again, this wasn't such a huge finding because it wasn't in the scope of our research questions at the time, but it's something that could be looked at. They are developing strategies to be like, okay, I need to take a social media break for three days. I'm done, I'm off and they're doing it right. They're taking these social media cleanses, right. There are students who are getting the flip phones and are like, hey, we need to get off these spaces, right? So they are they're taking control in that way to an extent, particularly when they have support. But I think we need to be aware that so much is happening through these spaces that we can't always think that they're doing the rotting because they're doing a lot, and that teachers are requiring a lot of stuff online, for better or for worse. So they are doing some stuff that goes beyond the scope of what we're thinking.

MATT JORDAN: You've talked about identity formation and the relationship between that and the algorithm, or at least tailoring or manipulating their algorithm to that. Is there more to, their identity formation that through the practice of social media consumption to, to that than just, producing, timeline, and kind of negotiating with their algorithm thinks?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, yes. So I think in terms of overall identity construction and moving outside of the algorithm for a second, rethinking, from a, from a psychological perspective. Right. We're thinking about self-presentation, right. How they're curating their image and social comparison, how they're looking at others. Right, as stuff that happens offline. Right. But now it's being super amplified online. I think that's where we need to pay attention to. I think most of the research that's showing all the negative effects is coming from the comparatives, the comparison stuff, right? Where they're constantly comparing themselves to other people that they're seeing, other images that they're seeing. And I think that's something that could be a space to support young people in. And I always use the example with, my students, right. When I had my first child, right. What am I doing at the time when I'm up at night, I'm looking at social media. Okay. Gisele Bundchen and Kourtney Kardashian are also having kids at the same time. I don't need to compare myself to how they're raising their kids, right? That has a lot of implications for identity development, because those are not my immediate others. Right? And that's what's happening to our kids online. Right? They're seeing so much that's way outside of their immediate peers and community that when these activities happen offline and it's not happening on that scale. So I think that's one area of identity construction where we're thinking about so much being put in front of them that is so outside of their immediate possible realm. Right? And I think that's another area of support that these kids really need.

CORY BARKER: A lot of your work in our conversation today underlines, at least for me, that so many of the things that we're interested in or concerned about regarding young people and their news consumption habits or their social media habits can be, you know, upscaled to other generations. These are complications or issues or problems if we want to call them that, that do impact different groups of people differently. But there are some universal things that we all experience. And I think your response there about, you know, seeing other sort of like celebrity moms, in the comparison piece being really meaningful there to that point, is there is there more from your work that gets you thinking about how adults could be served by better news or media literacy education, or different types of, you know, information and outreach to them to bring them into this process. In the same way, you know, research is focused and discourse is increasingly focused on how it's impacting young people.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So one area of my research, and maybe this doesn't answer your question exactly, but I think it does. I'm currently working on a few projects centered around civil discourse; online civil discourse. Right. But it's a reflection of kind of what they're learning online. Right? There's a huge focus on argumentative reasoning and argumentative writing in the schools. Right? But when we think about participating in online discourse, what does that look like? Right? What does civil discourse look like in schools? We've nailed the argument piece, right. Kids are, you know, they're coming out like the competencies they need to make a claim counterclaim, but they're not understanding how to come to a consensus in a way that feels not inflammatory online. Right? So often online. Right? But when we're thinking about this greater good, this sort of public space adult, I don't think are modeling these discourses well for young people. And I think that's one area of media literacy that could really be bolstered all over. Right? How do we discuss things online in a way that leads to productive discussion and free flow of ideas in a way that doesn't feel inflammatory? Because a lot of my participants that that inflammatory discourse that they heard, that they saw that they read online often shut them down from creating meaningful participation and creating meaning in a space that they were seeking information. So to me, that feels like an area that could really warrant a lot of exploration and a lot of support, because the other thing that was coming out is that a lot of times, things that they were seeing online led to offline discourse, which is a beautiful thing. Right? So how do we take that discourse and harness it for real productive means?

MATT JORDAN: Do you think that there I mean, obviously you describe Reddit as maybe a space that is modeling something more like, I don't know, deliberative discourse, aiming towards something like consensus or a group of you know, group consensus as opposed to whatever it is that people are doing on X, right, which is trolling, flaming, you know, dunking, reposting all that stuff that isn't very good at modeling deliberation. So is there something about the way that students or young people are interacting when they're not in spaces that are current, you know, that we think of as being news or civic spaces, right? Places, where they're where they're just, you know, they're taking a break from all that. Are there aspects of that where they're getting where they're doing a better job at, at the kind of listening and, you know, caring about the other people that they're talking about.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So I think that comes from their social stuff. Right? They are a they spoke a little bit. And again, this is a little bit outside of the realm of my study, but we did highlight it, that they were looking at, you know, reciprocating discussion when somebody commented on their stuff. They wanted to comment back. Right? There was sort of a social responsibility that they were feeling. And this is for people that they know pretty much. Right? Whether it was friends that they've met online that they've had long term interactions with or people that they know offline for the most part. Right. So in this way, I saw that happening a little bit. And actually, this is kind of what got me thinking, along with a lot of other larger ideas about the civil discourse piece, like, you can do this on a very small scale with your immediate friends, right? Because you know who they are, right? You do have some sort of care and empathy for their feelings. Right? And you feel the social responsibility of reciprocating and going back and forth. And I feel like that was a space where I was like, how do we tap into this? Right? How do we have them apply these moments of social clarity to the larger scale when we're talking about super inflammatory, issues? You know, is and I think also it's so easy to be like, oh, it's so nice to talk to your friends about their wonderful outfit that they wore out. And then engage in discourse when somebody is threatening human rights in some way. Right? Which becomes much more difficult and inflammatory when you have somebody who might be diametrically opposed to a human right. That or let's think about climate change. Right? If somebody's diametrically opposed to taking steps against climate change, right? And the student feels so strongly right, how do you do that in a way that can feel productive? Right. So it is difficult to apply, but maybe there are some principles there that can be applied outwards.

MATT JORDAN: Maybe one last question before we, and today and, and that's the role that influencers play. We have, you know, a lot of people are trying to move influencers into the new space. Read a lot of a lot of social media. I just read that, in the Nieman, that Harvard was had a… they're having fellows that are producing news for to kind of flood the zone with good stuff, you know, as opposed to just misinformation. And that seems to be more authentic. That's always been what media researchers have said is it that, Gen Z reacts to other people that are from Gen Z and understands it as being authentic. So, what role did you find that that sense of authenticity or that sense of opening themselves up to information plays in relation to people that they might have in an identity relationship with parasocially or otherwise?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, one interesting thing that I feel like, maybe as a developmental finder is our youngest participants seemed to trust people that had very high follower counts. Right? That seemed to be one of their kind of marks of trustworthiness. And so, when I'm thinking about that, right, that also makes me think about their algorithm and how they're curating it to kind of see these, these people that make them feel better. Right? That make them feel more authentic people who they relate to me. And so, if we leverage that kind of news and I wonder how much these social media companies could put some sort of safeguard of credibility here, really, how do you monitor this speech that comes out of in you really can't. Right? So, I think when we think about influencers, we have to kind of bring the human case like anybody, especially in media literacy education, anybody can be an influencer, right? When they get the right amount of followers. Anybody can put out this content. And I think showing them that creation aspect is incredibly important. And I think, veering from your question, can you just guide me back to your original core of the question so that I can answer it? Because I get all caught up in the influencer stuff.

MATT JORDAN: Yeah. So, it's just like whether or not the if there that skepticism that we described before that they have if it's an influencer, does that skepticism drop? And maybe they start listening a little bit more.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, I would say that there's a parasocial relationship that happens, right, that I'm seeing when they find an influencer that they trust, they will drop that veil a little bit of cynicism. So, when that person is in their ears a lot, when they're seeing them a lot. Right? When they start to relate to them, I've seen and what my participants are saying is that they do drop that veil a little bit. And that, and I think it's similar to the old ways that we used to relate to news anchors, right? Who trust this person and who trust that person. Right? You know, Regis Philbin tells us something. Maybe I'm speaking to my age. I'm like, okay, I'm okay with this, right? And I think that that's a similar process is happening with these influencers, particularly the ones with an incredibly large reach. And so, for the youngest of users, like I said, when they're seeing influencers with a large reach, they're automatically like, okay, other people have vetted this person. Maybe I don't need to. And so that's something to think about. Yeah.

MATT JORDAN: Well, thanks so much for, for coming, and talking with us today. That gives us a lot to think about. And there's a, there's a lot more to be to be said about this. Thanks so much.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Thanks for having me.

MATT JORDAN: Well, Cory, that, that that was a that was a that was really enlightening. And so far as it takes us out of the frame of just thinking about, about the people as, active or passive and somewhere in between. So, what are some of the takeaways that you had on this?

CORY BARKER: You know, I think it really reinforced a lot of the things that I hear from my students when I talk to them about some of the things that we explore on this show and at the News Literacy Initiative, in that they do really recognize some of the complications that getting news on social media from any source on those platforms brings to their lives. They understand the potential harms, if we're going to call them that, that these platforms can have on their lives. But they're also approaching, you know, those platforms and these devices with, a sense that they also matter to their lives, right? That they need them. They feel like they need them socially. They need them to connect to people in the world. And so, when they're trying to navigate all of these things at once, sometimes they feel like they can do that really well and really understand this is a good source; this is a bad source. And, other times, even passively, to use your framework, they are maybe encountering things that pique their interest or, you know, confirm a prior… but may not be totally accurate. And they're willing to at least consume those things and potentially follow up further. But typically, just see them and then maybe move on. So, it's a really complex environment, which we talk about all the time. But in some ways, I think it's great to hear that young people feel the same way. And they're thinking about how do we navigate this, what sort of rules should I follow that are imposed upon me versus things that I feel personally? What about you?

MATT JORDAN: Well, yeah, I mean, that meta-awareness seems to be really important for watching subscribing. And it makes me realize that I have to do more as a news literacy educator than saying, eat your broccoli, right? Because if the if that's the thinking is that it's we kind of take on a parental role and by telling them about stuff, they will react against us and become even more entrenched in their beliefs. That's something I think we need to just think about in terms of our psychological model.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, in a great lesson or a reminder that that idea really does go across generations. So even when we talk to older students or people in the community or just older members of our family, whatever, you sense some of the same resistance. If you're potentially trying to talk to them about credibility or evaluating sources. I mean, folks perspectives might be a little bit more entrenched by the time they're in their 50s or 60s or what have you. But there's still a sense of how do we meet everybody in the middle when we're recognizing, we're all recognizing that maybe this environment is not serving us well. So, what do we do to get on the same page? Obviously, if we all knew that we maybe wouldn't be doing this podcast, but it's something to continue to think about as we try to improve this environment.

MATT JORDAN: Yeah. And I'm one, one kind of final thing I was thinking about was just, you know, in relation to this, feeling of agency or the desire for a feeling of agency, maybe that's a better way to put it is that they're literate insofar as they're aware of how the platforms work, how they think they know how algorithms work, at least enough to think that they can manipulate them. So that gives them a sense of active agency. And it and I wonder how much that for them and for any of us really is, is, a disavowal. Right? I feel like I'm in control. Therefore, I am so maybe that, you know, showing them they're not as in control as they think they are. I mean, that it's the there's more to the algorithm than just stuff you like. You know, it's also there's some game theory elements of it where the machine is throwing stuff that they'll know will rage back you to, you know, so there's a little bit of, of all of that and, and maybe taking away that confidence that they have, in their own ability to control it might not be a bad thing. That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guest was Rachel Besharat Mann, associate professor of the practice at Wesleyan University. To learn more, visit news-over-noise-dot-org. I'm Matt Jordan.

CORY BARKER: And I'm Cory Barker.

MATT JORDAN: Until next time, stay well and well informed. News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald P. Bellisario College of Communications and WPSU. This program has been funded by the office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy Initiative.

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CORY BARKER: In November 2023, a document written more than twenty years earlier suddenly re-entered the public conversation: Osama bin Laden’s Letter to America. The reason wasn’t a history class or a news documentary. It was TikTok. Videos referencing the letter began circulating widely on the platform, with creators reading excerpts, reacting to its arguments, and debating its claims—often stripped of historical context. The trend drew enough attention that TikTok ultimately removed videos and hashtags related to the letter, while news outlets including Vox and The Guardian reported on how and why it was spreading. In this case, a primary source tied to one of the most consequential events in modern history resurfaced not through curriculum or journalism, but through an algorithm, reaching social media users, many of them young people. For adults watching this happen, the reaction was often alarm. Why are kids seeing this? Who’s teaching them? What are they being influenced by? But those questions rest on a familiar assumption: that young people are passive recipients of information, simply absorbing whatever appears in their feeds. What if that assumption is wrong? What if moments like this are actually part of how young people begin forming civic identities, testing ideas, negotiating values, and figuring out where they stand?

MATT JORDAN: That’s the focus of research by Rachel Besharat Mann. She’s an Associate Professor of the Practice at Wesleyan University whose work examines media literacy, adolescent development, and how K–12 students engage with news in social media environments. Rather than asking only what young people are consuming, her work asks how they’re making meaning, and why identity and belonging matter as much as facts. We’re going to talk with her about how young people encounter news through peers and platforms, what adults often misunderstand about youth media use, and what it actually means to support civic learning in a digital world shaped by algorithms, emotion, and social context. Rachel Besharat Mann, welcome to News Over Noise.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Thanks for having me.

MATT JORDAN: One of the things we've discussed on this show a lot is news avoidance as something that hinders the ability of the public to deliberate in a democracy. And one of the most news avoidant demographics, according to the Pew Center and other research firms, are young people and young adults. Are young people avoiding the news, as Pew indicates? And why?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, I think the answer is yes, they are. But to an extent, right? I think what they're looking for is exerting some control over what they see in a way that they couldn't do otherwise without social media. So, most of them, in at least in my participants over the course of my studies, have shown that they see news on social media, and they actively will ignore people whose opinions A. may differ from theirs or B. they deem harmful in some way, whatever that means for the individual. It seems like they cleanse their algorithm when they feel like they're getting too much… too much news that might affect them emotionally. But the big thing that I'm seeing is that they are looking down at social media news outlets in a way that they think it might not be critically as impressive as other news sources. So, when they are consuming news through social media, they are going to the typical culprit. They're looking at New York Times, they're looking at NPR. Right? And what they're doing is that they're skimming the headlines and they're really cherry picking what they're looking at.

MATT JORDAN: So, they're negotiating through the process of choice and algorithm what it is they see for the sake of wellness?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, there's a big emphasis on this wellness idea that they're being bombarded with a lot of information that sometimes they don't want to see. And it's not only wellness, but oftentimes they feel like a lot of the information they're seeing through these platforms specifically is performative. And so, they're deeming it more as an opinion than as fact, which is why I believe they're clinging to these typical news sources, even though social media platforms.

CORY BARKER: Through your answer there, it made me think about just the way in which they're differentiating between, you know, a localized organic content creator on an Instagram or TikTok versus looking at CNN or The New York Times. In your previous answer right there, you talked about kind of the sense of distrust or performativity in those more conventional content creators may be talking about the news. Are there other things that have come up in your interviews as far as why they distrust, or at least are skeptical of, more influencer or content creator conversation about the news versus more conventional news outlets who might also have accounts on Instagram and TikTok?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yes. So, one of the big things that I think is coming up, and maybe this is just me thinking that they are regurgitating a lot of maybe very traditional media literacy curriculum that they're seeing in school, right? That social media creates echo chamber is a lot of our participants talked about these echo chambers, whether they call them echo boxes or echo chambers or bubbles. So, they kind of realize that a lot of these individual content creators are coming from an opinion-based space, right? Which is what social media being for. And as it is. Right? It's just when we see these high numbers of people consuming news through social media platforms, only adults and young people, to an extent, we hope that they have this sort of quest for truth. But yeah, that that's what I'm seeing a lot that they realize there's an echo chamber. And so, they are more questioning of what they're seeing. But at the same time, they seem to enjoy an echo chamber because they don't really want to hear things that are at odds with what they firmly believe.

CORY BARKER: And is there something that they say about the type of content that the more conventional news outlets are producing in these social platforms spaces that makes them feel like those places are more legitimate? Or do you feel like that that is just a part of them having heard or, you know, experience or second hand that, well, The New York Timesand NPR credible. So, I should check what's going on there in sort of a breaking news context.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, one of the big things that I think really speaks to that question is a lot of our participants refer to, and I think this kind of combines what I've been saying, the performativity of these, of a lot of the content creators, the sharing of infographics, AI generated imagery. Right? They referred to, people sharing the black square during the Black Lives Matter movement. Right? Those sorts of things that they felt like are less informational and are really kind of to draw viewers and to think about discourse in the comments versus original reporting, where they're getting information from the ground. And so, they feel like and they also for… to their spaces on social media, they're looking a lot at stories on social media and those quick kind of the things that you go through very quickly, rather than sifting through accounts and their grid posts where they're looking at, maybe there could be a little bit more content there. And I think the last thing is a lot of those content creators are linking out to things like The New York Times, and so they feel like that's kind of the ground where the real reporting is happening.

MATT JORDAN: And do they do they leave the social media platform very much. I mean, do they link out or do they stay pretty much on the platform?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, this is a really positive thing that I'm seeing. When our participants are seeing something that they want to know more about. They are definitely leaving the platform, but they are going to those websites that they have deemed already credible. Right? They're going to The New York Times; they're going to NPR. Those are the two big ones that come up a lot. But I think it also should be said that the last time we collected data on this was about six months ago. So, I'm wondering what that looks like now with, the incredible explosion of independent reporting that's been happening through social media, which is something that we're going to attend to very soon.

CORY BARKER: If we can think of a little bit more broadly, what's your sense through these interviews and conversations with young people of how they feel about social media platforms overall? Right? Not just in the role of news being delivered to them, or content creators discussing news topics. How do they feel about the existence of social platforms in their lives?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, this is interesting. So, in our latest study, we did get a lot of information on how they're conceptualizing these spaces. Right? And it's almost like a push and pull. They are very aware of how pervasive these spaces are in their lives. They know that their social lives exist here. They know this is where they're getting most of their information. They also feel this outside judgment on them from other generations, from institutions, right. In schools, they're hearing, you know, your phone, they're hearing these narratives about them, their generation. And when I say that, I mean, you know, kids who are currently in high school and middle school and even college students, right? They feel this narrative that everyone thinks they're on their phones, that they're scrolling, that they're doing limited reading. Right. And they are pushing back against that. They don't want to be seen as that. And they're recognizing that social media exists and that it has a lot of shortfalls. And I think that they're to amplify their voices a little bit. They're pushing back. And they want, you know, other institutions and generations to understand that they're doing great things in these spaces. But sometimes they are doing mind numbing stuff. Right? So, they're conceptual, like they understand that it's not that serious of a space. And they kept saying it over and over again. And actually, this is interesting. As we were collecting data, I had to pull back from being the one to collect the data from young people, as they were doing, you know, they were thinking aloud through their social media usage, and my research assistant had to do it because they were performing for me as an older person about what I wanted to see. And it was so interesting because every other sentence was, well, you know, I'm not on here that often, and I would never look at this because I think it's not credible. And the ways that that changed when my younger undergraduate research assistants got practice doing this—

CORY BARKER: Well, and it seems like it seems like in my our conversations with our students, this is happening all the time, right? Like we come to those conversations with the sense that older generations are putting these kind of stereotypical assumptions on what younger people are doing with these platforms, and they agree with that. But then when they're talking about their experiences, right, they'll either say, well, I, I don't really do it this way, or I know that other people do, or my younger siblings are even worse. You know, I was just having a conversation with students this week. Is that is that something that you feel like is just inherent in how we feel about our own technology use and thinking about how other people are perceiving of that? Or do you feel like that? That's pressure that's coming to them from parents or teachers. And so, they're trying to perform it, or is it all of those things?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, I think it's a little bit of all of that, coupled with the fact that these this is an area, this is an age group that is really in the throes of identity development. So, they're constantly negotiating that out loud with themselves and with their immediate environment. Right. So, I think they're getting the messaging from the major institutions that are that they are in right there at school. They're dealing with their home life. Right. They're dealing with their peers to an extent, who are also getting the same message. So, I think it's a constant identity negotiation with them. I think they're trying to find their footing. And I think that the messaging is becoming very internal. I also think that there's, there's a media aspect of it too. Right? There's a lot of information about screen time and short-form content that flows through social media that they're seeing, and then they're seeing media representations through television shows and movies of people on their phone. And, you know, whether it's an attention issue or whether it's ignoring other people. Right? They're seeing that, internalizing it and trying to push back.

MATT JORDAN: So, in a sense, it sounds like what you're describing is that their media literacy, insofar as they're aware of all these bad things, kind of creates for them almost like a superego that they're aware of and they're negotiating. They're just choices in relation to that. And that seems pretty normal for adolescent development, right? That where your mom says, don't do that. And we say, I know I should do that, but no way, mom. So, but I'm wondering, just like you would ask yourself, their awareness of that, does that change their behavior at all in other words, they're are they're aware that maybe they shouldn't be rotting. That's my favorite term that my, my kid likes to use in relation to that, because he's aware that there's something about scrolling on TikTok that is not good, so he uses the verb rot. So, he's aware of it, but I still think he rots on TikTok a lot. So, is that is that part of the negotiation?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. It's, and, you know, we do this as adults. I mean, I least I do, right? You know, I know this is bad for me to be on the screen right before I go to bed. And I do you know what? I want to cosign what you just said. Because I do believe that they are very aware, which I think is something that adults and educators and parents need to know. Like young people are aware of these narratives and they do. I love that term super ego, right? They have this meta awareness, but they are not always attending to it. Right. Because and I think that there's a lot of social constraints here. A lot of the social work in their lives is happening through these spaces. And so there is this element of, if I'm not here, if I'm not available, I'm not going to be included in this space. Or alternatively, a lot of schools have, you know, social media feeds that alert them to different events and things. So, they feel that they need to be in those spaces. I also do think, and especially a lot of our participants are our students currently, whether they're undergraduate students here, or their high school students, they have a lot going on. Right? So, they're constantly, you know, between school, work, social stuff, clubs, athletics. Once they get a chance to unwind, that phone is their best space to do that. And so regardless of how they feel about these messages, they're going to write, as you say, because it just makes them feel like, okay, I can shut down for a moment.

CORY BARKER: In the piece that you recently published that that we read, you conclude with a point that young people tend to trust the quote unquote, fairness of the algorithm on social media. Can you share a little bit more about how they expressed that perception of fairness in your sessions with them?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So in the algorithm, this was the my favorite finding in this paper, right? This this space that we're calling the reciprocal algorithmic manipulation. Right. Where they believe that they are exerting a lot of control over their algorithm. They anthropomorphize the algorithm over and over again. Right? “My algorithm is good. My algorithm is bad. I can train my algorithm to do this. My algorithm is getting faulty today.” Right? This is the things that they would say. And they knew how to address those problems. And they understood that, you know, and they all were hyper aware that “Oh, if I talk about this, my algorithm will change.” And so they were very trusting in the fact that they had control over these algorithms, and they were very trusting that their algorithms would learn their patterns in a way that, again, they could control. I think it all comes down to and, you know, being also a developmental is right. I think a lot about their development of independence and their need for autonomy. Right. So I think this is an outlet where they can support that, but I think they aren't as aware of how little control they might really have over it when it comes to economic marketing and targeting through algorithms. Right? And I think through their influencer content, they're not as aware of, you know, how really targeted they can be through multiple spaces, through email, through discussion, through buying patterns. I do think they believe they have more control, even though they do trust in this fairness of the algorithm.And I, I do believe as the AI conversation grows and grows, they become a little bit less. They are becoming a little bit less trusting of this fairness. So I don't know. Yeah.

CORY BARKER: That's a really great way to put it, because it seems like the social platform companies have done such an amazing job over the last 10 to 15 years of convincing the general public, whether you're a content creator or just a consumer, that there is a level of meritocracy here that you're going to be able to as a creator, you're going to be able to sort of rise through the ranks if you follow these particular steps and do it in the right way. And as a consumer, you're going to be able to learn what you like and be able to control, you know, what you don't like and filter those things out. But they've almost, you know, with their obsession with AI, they're almost pushing that too far. Where the general public writ large, I think, is starting to sense and see the manipulation happening a little bit more clearly, where the types of content that we're seeing on these platforms is just not anything that anyone asked for it, in contrast to maybe previous generations of whatever the algorithm was giving to us.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, and it's interesting. We had students in a this is in a classroom setting, and we're thinking about it in a larger area. You know, I'm very interested in identity construction and development. And so we had them kind of algorithmically map their identities. They went through all their different platforms and kind of made lists of all the things that as if their algorithm was another person. I'm perpetuating the mutation of it, as if their algorithm was another person looking at them. What do they think of them? Right? So what is the algorithm saying about them? And so then they compared how they viewed themselves to how the algorithm views them. And some students really found that it was spot on and others were like, this is you know, I'm not into [inaudible] or whatever it was. And I just felt like it was really interesting to have them come face to face with really thinking about the algorithm as a human being, tracking their movements and thinking about who they are.

MATT JORDAN: One of the kind of frames that people have used to think about this as a news finds me mentality, right, that the, the algorithm knows what everybody needs in terms of the news content related to your disposition, your personality or whatever. And so it feeds it to you. Do you think that they have a certain confidence that the algorithm will provide in that sense?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yes, definitely. And I also think there's another nuance there. I think, this becomes very platform specific. Right? They go to specific platforms for specific things immediately. If they're looking for… I need to be informed about what's happening right now. They are still going to X; Twitter. Right? They're still going there. They're looking at Instagram threads, right, for that immediate sort of, you know, written expression verses are they sifting through… and they're definitely not sifting through Facebook, but, sifting through Instagram and going through the photos and going to their creators, they're really going to those kind of like snippets sort of spaces. They also are going to Reddit to an extent there too, but that's more, search oriented. Where the other platforms, when we went through this, they are not searching specifically for things through any of these platforms, which I think speaks to your point. They are letting things find them through social media platforms.

MATT JORDAN: We’re talking about identity formation. And one of the identities that you are interested in in your work has been civic identity. Right?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah.

MATT JORDAN: So obviously we all have a developmental identity and it sounds like that's the one that they're most comfortable with. Right? How who how am I as a person in the world? How are how am I relating to things? How am I maybe deluding myself into thinking I have agency over my algorithm, etc., etc. but I wonder if there's a difference between that and something like a civic identity that they might be aware of, or maybe not aware of.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, so I think our findings during this study, which is kind of a preliminary study that's going to lead out or is currently leading out their civic conceptualizations of themselves, they exist along a few different lines, right? There's kind of their political identity in terms of what party, what ideological space they're identifying in, but also their responsibility as a citizen. So, it's kind of twofold here. And as a community member. Right? What are they supposed to do in their own communities? And I don't know how much they're recognizing their civic responsibilities in their small communities. Right? Like, this is how I'm enacting this through my school, right? They just think that that's part of their role-related selves. Right? But in terms of the larger, you know what? How am I going to vote? What am I thinking about this issue? I think that's where they tend to shut down because there's so much out there on social media and they're having a hard time sifting through the performative versus the informative. And that's something that I'm seeing when it comes to civic identity, because the other identity piece, right, like that, you're talking about, you know, the different things that they purchase, the things that they're interested in, you know, recreationally, that stuff is pretty fluid and it comes pretty naturally through those spaces. Right? That's what they're for; their social connections. I think the civic stuff is a little bit different for them. And I think that's also as a result of their developmental stage. Right? They're adolescents and young adults. Which university students, they're definitely a continuation of, of adolescence, right? These emerging adults. And the fact that they're still in the university setting. Right? They don't really know the world as well as they think they do. Right? So they when they hear these opinions on these larger scale things that don't necessarily affect them, I think they have a hard time when they're being inundated with all of this information processing it.

MATT JORDAN: So do you think they develop a sense of the I don't know if the public good or of like public interest or anything like that, that you would say is an important feature of a civic identity?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So this is one thing that I'm toying with, but I don't know if my participants in my findings necessarily support this beautifully. But as a tan gentile. So I do think that social media has the potential to highlight that social good. And I'll use one example that a few of our participants not enough to have it be a real finding, but they were talking about Reddit as a platform and how there's a lot of crowdsourcing in Reddit. You know, help me choose my new pair of glasses. Help me choose this. And the and they always commented about how the commenters in these spaces come together and discuss in a way that feels so much more nurturing and caring than other platforms. Right? So in places like Instagram and X and these other platforms that they do go to get more information, it seems like they're yearning for that. And so when they see it, they highlighted immediately. So they'll bring it to your attention. I love when I can go to the comments and see people come to a consensus about this or see, you know, people sharing ideas. And when they said that, they would go to the comments themselves to see what people were saying, right. That gives me hope that social media can be leveraged in that way to give this idea of the public good. The other thing isn't that it is, exposing them to multiple perspectives, which we know from the literacy research and, you know, social studies research and all that, that that really helps build empathy and this understanding of public good in that way. So I can't really I know that I'm beating around the bush on your question because I feel like I can't answer it definitively because it's from my specific studies. But from what I read and from the preliminary findings, I think, yes, it can be, but maybe we're not doing a great job of leveraging that yet.

CORY BARKER: Related to identity creation. In your conversations with young people, is there a sense that, like news consumption is at all central to their identity, or maybe even emerging news consumption as they're maybe getting a little bit older that they're realizing or recognizing for any number of reasons that they should be a news consumer, and that that should be a sort of core part of their identity in any way.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And I see this specifically with the university students. Right? They have a very specific idea about where they should be getting their news, how informed they should be, what discourses they should be participating in or not. Because we are seeing, you know, a decline in them actually participating in that commentary. But yes, they have a very specific idea of what an intellectual news consumer looks like. And it is not somebody who's getting their news from social media, even though that appears to be what they're doing most of the time. Right. But yes, they do have this idea in their head about what it looks like.

MATT JORDAN: One of the things that I find interesting, sifting through some of the pew stuff and whatnot, is that and this is something you describe, is that the generation that is most likely to use social media is also seems to be one of the lowest in terms of, what shall I say, credulity. They believe the least of what they read on social media. Whereas apparently my generation, Gen X is the most credulous of all the general, generations. We believe, apparently, every conspiracy theory that comes down from the pike. So, I guess one of the questions I have on this is whether the identity that is emerging through the social media use is a, what shall I say, like a deliberative, democratic disposition that kind of makes them want to learn more, or is one that is more cynical, that makes them kind of want to tune out and say, I don't believe much of anything.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, I think, I think it's the latter. I do believe they're becoming more cynical. And I think it's because of the sheer amount of information and the amount of creators that come into it through social media. Right. And I also think we have to take into consideration the climate in which they're growing up. Right? The inundation of the news cycles, right? The emotional turmoil that they're constantly facing. Right. Because of the availability of these platforms. So and I think also media literacy education as a whole. Right? It's all about credibility evaluation, right? Everything's about making judgment. You know, in the pilot study for this, every single student participating said, I make sure that the website says dot-edu or gov or else I don't think anything that they say is true. Right. So they have these very strict guidelines for what's true and what's not. And social media doesn't fit into that for them. And so I think that they struggle with thinking about that as a very real source of information. And I do think it's making them more cynical. And I think so that coupled with the performativity of a lot of the influencers and commentators that they follow, makes them more cynical. And I also think they're I think that they're more aware of the economic space, too. And, and, you know, because they do, things are marked as ad and, and promoted content, sponsored content. They're very aware of that. And I think this is a problem because we don't want them to become overly cynical to everything, but we also want them to develop real time skills to take that cynicism and be critical and evaluate and make decisions based on what they're seeing. And that's very difficult when they're young and they may have limited experiences with it.

CORY BARKER: On that point. And some of your previous research you found and talked a little bit about how young people also express a cynicism toward some of the training that they receive, either informally or formally, about how to navigate this information ecosystem. What does that cynicism about specifically media literacy education, how does that manifest? What sort of things are they saying and maybe then we can talk a little bit about how to potentially combat, you know, that cynicism as well in media literacy education.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Oh, great. Ask me to solve all the big problems. So. It actually is going to be sad to hear, but they generationally believe that their older teachers may not have an understanding of the media landscape that they're facing, even though we do. We know what's going on, but they believe that we don't really understand their processes that, you know, we didn't grow up with this, so we don't know. And I think that's their biggest sort of point. And I think coupled with the messaging that they're hearing, we don't want to you on your phone and stop doing it. And your phone’s… don't trust this. Right. These very and then and then also paired with the this scripted media literacy education that they often receive, I just don't think that they feel like it's authentic enough. And this is obviously not speaking for every teacher. I have seen some teachers do amazing work authentically with this in the classroom, right? A lot of teachers, actually. It's just I think sometimes kids have this picture of the generation gap and, you know, like every generation does. You don't understand what's going on in front of me. And in this case, it's on my phone.

MATT JORDAN: I think that I mean, that's interesting. I mean, I think what you're saying is borne out through sociology, right? That one of the driving factors is generational differentiation that kids want to say, I'm not like you, you don't understand me. All that, all that stuff. If media literacy then is associated with intergenerational discord or you don't understand me. Doesn't that become a problem for media literacy educators? You know, like, how is it that we can here's some knowledge I'm going to drop on you that I think will help. Won't there be an automatic kind of shut down? But if that's the case.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And so yes. And I think also to be fair, that is an issue when it comes to almost anything, right, that that teachers are bringing into the classroom. Right. And we find a way to make these things very authentic. I was in a k-through-12 classroom for a while. Right? You find a way to bring things, whether you're bringing in outside media, whether you're letting the, you know, you're valuing the kids voices and shaping, you know, that's code construction of knowledge that in the education field is so heavily valued by educators. I think that that is something that we can leverage and maybe I can solve the problem. But this is something that I've been thinking about a lot. Right? And being a few years removed from being in K through 12 schools, thinking about teachers, working with students. Right? Working in a space where, show me what you're doing, talk to me about your concerns. Let's work through them together. Right? There's some great work that a lot of researchers. Not a lot, but there is work that researchers are doing that's really centering this student voice. This the pushback that I was talking about at the beginning, showing what these kids want, what they want out of media literacy education, what they want adults to know about what they're doing on their screens. And, and what parameters they feel like they need. What, what limits and what support they need. And I think that that could be one way that media literacy education can rise to the occasion. And again, I seen teachers do this, and it's really beautiful when it happens.

CORY BARKER: Yeah. And it seems like to connect the, you know, Matt’s question in your answer. It does to some extent feel like the challenge is sort of bridging that divide that both sides of that potential conversation are bringing to it. You know, even in my experience in classes with students thinking about ways to, to do this, have this co construction of knowledge and think about our different relationships to screen or social media, you do still sense that a lot of the students are saying things that they feel like you want to hear about their use or generational use of technology in trying to, you know, destabilize that or destigmatize that and work them through. You know, I use all these screens in the same way, or I might not be on my phone 18 hours a day like you, but I'm on this other screen, you know, quite a lot. Right? And it's not just the screen itself or the device itself. That is the issue. It feels like that is such a an important thing that we're going to have to figure out moving forward is both sides maybe wanting to come to some sort of, middle ground, but figuring out how we come to that and maybe let our guard down in a way that allows for productive conversation and building of knowledge and comfortability.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. And this is why I'm still mulling over. Right. And I, I have strong feelings on both sides of this. But when we talk about, like, cell phone bans and these sorts of, like extreme language surrounding this, I think part of me thinks that this could be a hindrance to this conversation. Right? It's like we're doing this contraband thing because you're not allowed to have cell phones, and you know that this is how we as adults are feeling about your cell phone usage rate. But then at the same time, I know that they can be an incredible distraction. But for me, and this is very easy for me to say in my little tower of higher education, because my students, you know, I can tell them, shut your computers, do this. Like we don't have any sweeping policy here. And they're very easygoing about all of this. I've almost never had a problem with cell phones or computers in class. You know, it's easy for me to say those conversations have been very organically in my classroom. And obviously the content that I teach really lends itself to it as well. But, you know, removing that barrier and also having, you know, students feeling a little bit more safe in those spaces to talk about their concerns helps me get into their heads. But then by the time they get to me, they're university students, right? So it would be nice to figure out a way to leverage that with younger kids, particularly as young. We're seeing kids as young as 9, 10 getting phones and getting on social media, and it's like, okay, we don't love it, but what are we going to do, right? You can't yell at parents for doing things, especially when there's extenuating circumstances that warrant that happening right? Travel going to different parents homes. Right? Parents have to make decisions for their kid. But how do we really get kids at a young enough age to really discuss with them what is happening and what they should be aware of.

CORY BARKER: In your interviews with young people, what do you feel like other than, “You don't understand, man,” what do you feel like young people most want older people? If we just have that basic binary to know about their experiences on social platforms, whether that's connected to news or otherwise, that that might be helpful for, you know, for our audience as they're listening to this, to think about either in their individual lives or just more broadly about the relationships between generations in these spaces.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah, I think the one thing outside of the news consumption, I think the social aspect of social media is something that we all need to be really aware of, because they are having a lot of difficulty removing their social life from social media. But at the same time, I think that they want us to know, like, hey, I'm not always on my phone doing something stupid, right? I'm connecting with my friends. I'm creating a social life, right? I'm curating an image. I'm doing whatever I'm doing that is helping me socially make sense of what's going on around me. And also at the same time. And again, this wasn't such a huge finding because it wasn't in the scope of our research questions at the time, but it's something that could be looked at. They are developing strategies to be like, okay, I need to take a social media break for three days. I'm done, I'm off and they're doing it right. They're taking these social media cleanses, right. There are students who are getting the flip phones and are like, hey, we need to get off these spaces, right? So they are they're taking control in that way to an extent, particularly when they have support. But I think we need to be aware that so much is happening through these spaces that we can't always think that they're doing the rotting because they're doing a lot, and that teachers are requiring a lot of stuff online, for better or for worse. So they are doing some stuff that goes beyond the scope of what we're thinking.

MATT JORDAN: You've talked about identity formation and the relationship between that and the algorithm, or at least tailoring or manipulating their algorithm to that. Is there more to, their identity formation that through the practice of social media consumption to, to that than just, producing, timeline, and kind of negotiating with their algorithm thinks?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, yes. So I think in terms of overall identity construction and moving outside of the algorithm for a second, rethinking, from a, from a psychological perspective. Right. We're thinking about self-presentation, right. How they're curating their image and social comparison, how they're looking at others. Right, as stuff that happens offline. Right. But now it's being super amplified online. I think that's where we need to pay attention to. I think most of the research that's showing all the negative effects is coming from the comparatives, the comparison stuff, right? Where they're constantly comparing themselves to other people that they're seeing, other images that they're seeing. And I think that's something that could be a space to support young people in. And I always use the example with, my students, right. When I had my first child, right. What am I doing at the time when I'm up at night, I'm looking at social media. Okay. Gisele Bundchen and Kourtney Kardashian are also having kids at the same time. I don't need to compare myself to how they're raising their kids, right? That has a lot of implications for identity development, because those are not my immediate others. Right? And that's what's happening to our kids online. Right? They're seeing so much that's way outside of their immediate peers and community that when these activities happen offline and it's not happening on that scale. So I think that's one area of identity construction where we're thinking about so much being put in front of them that is so outside of their immediate possible realm. Right? And I think that's another area of support that these kids really need.

CORY BARKER: A lot of your work in our conversation today underlines, at least for me, that so many of the things that we're interested in or concerned about regarding young people and their news consumption habits or their social media habits can be, you know, upscaled to other generations. These are complications or issues or problems if we want to call them that, that do impact different groups of people differently. But there are some universal things that we all experience. And I think your response there about, you know, seeing other sort of like celebrity moms, in the comparison piece being really meaningful there to that point, is there is there more from your work that gets you thinking about how adults could be served by better news or media literacy education, or different types of, you know, information and outreach to them to bring them into this process. In the same way, you know, research is focused and discourse is increasingly focused on how it's impacting young people.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So one area of my research, and maybe this doesn't answer your question exactly, but I think it does. I'm currently working on a few projects centered around civil discourse; online civil discourse. Right. But it's a reflection of kind of what they're learning online. Right? There's a huge focus on argumentative reasoning and argumentative writing in the schools. Right? But when we think about participating in online discourse, what does that look like? Right? What does civil discourse look like in schools? We've nailed the argument piece, right. Kids are, you know, they're coming out like the competencies they need to make a claim counterclaim, but they're not understanding how to come to a consensus in a way that feels not inflammatory online. Right? So often online. Right? But when we're thinking about this greater good, this sort of public space adult, I don't think are modeling these discourses well for young people. And I think that's one area of media literacy that could really be bolstered all over. Right? How do we discuss things online in a way that leads to productive discussion and free flow of ideas in a way that doesn't feel inflammatory? Because a lot of my participants that that inflammatory discourse that they heard, that they saw that they read online often shut them down from creating meaningful participation and creating meaning in a space that they were seeking information. So to me, that feels like an area that could really warrant a lot of exploration and a lot of support, because the other thing that was coming out is that a lot of times, things that they were seeing online led to offline discourse, which is a beautiful thing. Right? So how do we take that discourse and harness it for real productive means?

MATT JORDAN: Do you think that there I mean, obviously you describe Reddit as maybe a space that is modeling something more like, I don't know, deliberative discourse, aiming towards something like consensus or a group of you know, group consensus as opposed to whatever it is that people are doing on X, right, which is trolling, flaming, you know, dunking, reposting all that stuff that isn't very good at modeling deliberation. So is there something about the way that students or young people are interacting when they're not in spaces that are current, you know, that we think of as being news or civic spaces, right? Places, where they're where they're just, you know, they're taking a break from all that. Are there aspects of that where they're getting where they're doing a better job at, at the kind of listening and, you know, caring about the other people that they're talking about.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So I think that comes from their social stuff. Right? They are a they spoke a little bit. And again, this is a little bit outside of the realm of my study, but we did highlight it, that they were looking at, you know, reciprocating discussion when somebody commented on their stuff. They wanted to comment back. Right? There was sort of a social responsibility that they were feeling. And this is for people that they know pretty much. Right? Whether it was friends that they've met online that they've had long term interactions with or people that they know offline for the most part. Right. So in this way, I saw that happening a little bit. And actually, this is kind of what got me thinking, along with a lot of other larger ideas about the civil discourse piece, like, you can do this on a very small scale with your immediate friends, right? Because you know who they are, right? You do have some sort of care and empathy for their feelings. Right? And you feel the social responsibility of reciprocating and going back and forth. And I feel like that was a space where I was like, how do we tap into this? Right? How do we have them apply these moments of social clarity to the larger scale when we're talking about super inflammatory, issues? You know, is and I think also it's so easy to be like, oh, it's so nice to talk to your friends about their wonderful outfit that they wore out. And then engage in discourse when somebody is threatening human rights in some way. Right? Which becomes much more difficult and inflammatory when you have somebody who might be diametrically opposed to a human right. That or let's think about climate change. Right? If somebody's diametrically opposed to taking steps against climate change, right? And the student feels so strongly right, how do you do that in a way that can feel productive? Right. So it is difficult to apply, but maybe there are some principles there that can be applied outwards.

MATT JORDAN: Maybe one last question before we, and today and, and that's the role that influencers play. We have, you know, a lot of people are trying to move influencers into the new space. Read a lot of a lot of social media. I just read that, in the Nieman, that Harvard was had a… they're having fellows that are producing news for to kind of flood the zone with good stuff, you know, as opposed to just misinformation. And that seems to be more authentic. That's always been what media researchers have said is it that, Gen Z reacts to other people that are from Gen Z and understands it as being authentic. So, what role did you find that that sense of authenticity or that sense of opening themselves up to information plays in relation to people that they might have in an identity relationship with parasocially or otherwise?

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: So, one interesting thing that I feel like, maybe as a developmental finder is our youngest participants seemed to trust people that had very high follower counts. Right? That seemed to be one of their kind of marks of trustworthiness. And so, when I'm thinking about that, right, that also makes me think about their algorithm and how they're curating it to kind of see these, these people that make them feel better. Right? That make them feel more authentic people who they relate to me. And so, if we leverage that kind of news and I wonder how much these social media companies could put some sort of safeguard of credibility here, really, how do you monitor this speech that comes out of in you really can't. Right? So, I think when we think about influencers, we have to kind of bring the human case like anybody, especially in media literacy education, anybody can be an influencer, right? When they get the right amount of followers. Anybody can put out this content. And I think showing them that creation aspect is incredibly important. And I think, veering from your question, can you just guide me back to your original core of the question so that I can answer it? Because I get all caught up in the influencer stuff.

MATT JORDAN: Yeah. So, it's just like whether or not the if there that skepticism that we described before that they have if it's an influencer, does that skepticism drop? And maybe they start listening a little bit more.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Yeah. So, I would say that there's a parasocial relationship that happens, right, that I'm seeing when they find an influencer that they trust, they will drop that veil a little bit of cynicism. So, when that person is in their ears a lot, when they're seeing them a lot. Right? When they start to relate to them, I've seen and what my participants are saying is that they do drop that veil a little bit. And that, and I think it's similar to the old ways that we used to relate to news anchors, right? Who trust this person and who trust that person. Right? You know, Regis Philbin tells us something. Maybe I'm speaking to my age. I'm like, okay, I'm okay with this, right? And I think that that's a similar process is happening with these influencers, particularly the ones with an incredibly large reach. And so, for the youngest of users, like I said, when they're seeing influencers with a large reach, they're automatically like, okay, other people have vetted this person. Maybe I don't need to. And so that's something to think about. Yeah.

MATT JORDAN: Well, thanks so much for, for coming, and talking with us today. That gives us a lot to think about. And there's a, there's a lot more to be to be said about this. Thanks so much.

RACHEL BESHARAT MANN: Thanks for having me.

MATT JORDAN: Well, Cory, that, that that was a that was a that was really enlightening. And so far as it takes us out of the frame of just thinking about, about the people as, active or passive and somewhere in between. So, what are some of the takeaways that you had on this?

CORY BARKER: You know, I think it really reinforced a lot of the things that I hear from my students when I talk to them about some of the things that we explore on this show and at the News Literacy Initiative, in that they do really recognize some of the complications that getting news on social media from any source on those platforms brings to their lives. They understand the potential harms, if we're going to call them that, that these platforms can have on their lives. But they're also approaching, you know, those platforms and these devices with, a sense that they also matter to their lives, right? That they need them. They feel like they need them socially. They need them to connect to people in the world. And so, when they're trying to navigate all of these things at once, sometimes they feel like they can do that really well and really understand this is a good source; this is a bad source. And, other times, even passively, to use your framework, they are maybe encountering things that pique their interest or, you know, confirm a prior… but may not be totally accurate. And they're willing to at least consume those things and potentially follow up further. But typically, just see them and then maybe move on. So, it's a really complex environment, which we talk about all the time. But in some ways, I think it's great to hear that young people feel the same way. And they're thinking about how do we navigate this, what sort of rules should I follow that are imposed upon me versus things that I feel personally? What about you?

MATT JORDAN: Well, yeah, I mean, that meta-awareness seems to be really important for watching subscribing. And it makes me realize that I have to do more as a news literacy educator than saying, eat your broccoli, right? Because if the if that's the thinking is that it's we kind of take on a parental role and by telling them about stuff, they will react against us and become even more entrenched in their beliefs. That's something I think we need to just think about in terms of our psychological model.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, in a great lesson or a reminder that that idea really does go across generations. So even when we talk to older students or people in the community or just older members of our family, whatever, you sense some of the same resistance. If you're potentially trying to talk to them about credibility or evaluating sources. I mean, folks perspectives might be a little bit more entrenched by the time they're in their 50s or 60s or what have you. But there's still a sense of how do we meet everybody in the middle when we're recognizing, we're all recognizing that maybe this environment is not serving us well. So, what do we do to get on the same page? Obviously, if we all knew that we maybe wouldn't be doing this podcast, but it's something to continue to think about as we try to improve this environment.

MATT JORDAN: Yeah. And I'm one, one kind of final thing I was thinking about was just, you know, in relation to this, feeling of agency or the desire for a feeling of agency, maybe that's a better way to put it is that they're literate insofar as they're aware of how the platforms work, how they think they know how algorithms work, at least enough to think that they can manipulate them. So that gives them a sense of active agency. And it and I wonder how much that for them and for any of us really is, is, a disavowal. Right? I feel like I'm in control. Therefore, I am so maybe that, you know, showing them they're not as in control as they think they are. I mean, that it's the there's more to the algorithm than just stuff you like. You know, it's also there's some game theory elements of it where the machine is throwing stuff that they'll know will rage back you to, you know, so there's a little bit of, of all of that and, and maybe taking away that confidence that they have, in their own ability to control it might not be a bad thing. That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guest was Rachel Besharat Mann, associate professor of the practice at Wesleyan University. To learn more, visit news-over-noise-dot-org. I'm Matt Jordan.

CORY BARKER: And I'm Cory Barker.

MATT JORDAN: Until next time, stay well and well informed. News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald P. Bellisario College of Communications and WPSU. This program has been funded by the office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy Initiative.

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