When Universities Police the Press: The Fight Over Student Journalism

MATT JORDAN: Season four of News Over Noise officially launches in January. But this conversation felt too timely to hold. Our guest is making headlines due to an active lawsuit, so we wanted to share this conversation early. Enjoy this preview of what's to come.

CORY BARKER: In the fall of 2025. The Indiana Daily Student, one of the most respected student newspapers in the country, published a series of stories that didn't sit well with the university leadership. They cover topics like campus safety and administrative decisions. These weren't sensationalist pieces. They were solid, straightforward journalism. The kind of stories that hold public institutions accountable. But behind the scenes, administrators began to push back. According to reporting by the Indianapolis Star and the Poynter Institute, leadership at Indiana University's Media school began questioning how the student newsroom operated and what stories it chose to run. They allegedly asked the paper's advisor, Jim Rodenbush to stop students from publishing certain pieces, particularly those critical of the university.

MATT JORDAN: Rodenbush says he made it clear he wouldn't tell his students what they could or couldn't print. Soon after, he was fired. The university offered little explanation, but for journalists and educators across the country, the message felt unmistakable. Even student newsrooms aren't immune from institutional control. The events at IU are about more than just a personnel dispute. They raise larger questions about who controls information inside public institutions, and what happens when that control starts to look more like censorship and stewardship. To help us understand what happened at Indiana and what it says about the larger fight for press freedom on campus, we're talking with Jim Rodenbush, a longtime student media adviser and former director of student media at IU. Jim spent 16 years mentoring young reporters for his time at Indiana University. He managed student media programs at Colorado State, Webster University and here at Penn State. Jim Rodenbush, welcome to News Over Noise.

JIM RODENBUSH: Thank you very much for having me. Obviously, this case is at a time when there is a lot of discussion about the role of the free press and about the role of student media in a larger media ecosystem. And I just wanted to ask you some questions about the niche that student journalism serves at Indiana University and beyond. I would say specifically at Indiana University, you're looking at student media outlets, not just the Indiana Daily Student, but also, you know, Indiana University student television networks, radio. Those are outlets that are filling a coverage need. You know, Bloomington, Indiana, is no different than a lot of towns across the country that are seeing declines in staffing at their local newspapers. Changes to the structure of their local newspaper, to where there are things that simply aren't being covered or aren't being covered like they used to because there aren't available reporters. And so, you're seeing it everywhere that student media outlets are kind of, you know, plugging that gap and providing critical coverage to not just the towns that they are in, but the campuses that they cover. And I think that's a huge void that they're that they're currently filling.

CORY BARKER: Jim, as a two-time alum of IU and a former staffer and a desk editor at the IDS, it's it’s a real great honor to chat with you, unfortunately, under these circumstances. But to follow up what you were just getting to there about student journalists filling this role, especially in growing news deserts. Can you talk a little bit about how you and your student journalists thought about that? You know that editorial conversations that are happening related to how students might cover Bloomington, broader Monroe County, southwest Indiana, those sort of things, south central Indiana. Can you give us a little insight about what those conversations have been like?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, I think within the last 2 or 3 years. And I'm, you know, I'm speaking specifically to the ideas. I think there has been a real focus on not just coming to the ideas to, you know, the practice skills or to come to this learning lab, this training ground to be reporters. But the students have started to ask themselves, like, what does it mean to be in this role? And with that comes this increased focus on, okay, who are our audiences and how best can we serve these audiences? And the real transition and thinking was inherently; you think that the student newspaper is covering the campus that it's on. But we have begun to notice really, really significant increases in our audience numbers and our newspapers being picked up by people within the Bloomington community. And when you begin to pay attention to that, and you begin to ask yourself, okay, what does that mean? And how can we better serve this new crop of audience that is coming our way? The students really jumped into the mission of, okay, how can we cover Bloomington in a way that is productive? And what you are seeing, if, you know, if you take a deep dive into the IDS, is government reporting happening, schools and education being covered, you know, the type of areas to where you're serving an audience and telling them what important things are going on in their community. It's been a really great transformation because it reflects that these students are not just thinking about what they can gain from a student paper, but they're thinking about how they can serve at the same time. And it's been it was a really been a pleasure to have to be alongside of that for the last handful of years.

MATT JORDAN: It's interesting that, you know, often when we discuss local news, we talk about how important it is for bringing home larger issues to places where people understand their, their, the places they belong, where they feel a sense of community. And really, universities right now are at the front line of a whole lot of national things going on because of the attacks on universities, the visa denials to students, all of these policies that are really come home to roost in the local universities. How did your students go about covering those issues and bringing the stories about local impact home to audiences?

JIM RODENBUSH: I don't know if there was any real magic formula, you know, there at the student media level. What I've said before is that you are as close to a professional newsroom setting without being a professional newsroom setting, and I think it wasn't anything other than like, this is these are the important issues that are going on. Like, you know, they didn't have to, you know, think really hard about that because, you know, as 18- to 22-year-olds, these are also issues that are impacting them directly. And so, if you begin to think about it that way, it's not really that difficult to grasp on to the things that you should be covering. And again, I don't think there was any other any magical answer than just being aware of the world and the campaigns that was going on around,

CORY BARKER: You know, one of the issues that's come up quite a bit in the controversy related to the administration's decisions related to the IDS that affect you in the potential printing of the IDS, which at this time of recording has now subsequently been rolled back, that they are going to allow printing of issues of the IDS moving forward. But a lot of the conversation sort of surrounding this idea that the cost of printing and that the audience has migrated primarily to the internet or digital spaces to some extent, that's obviously true, right? We see that across the industry, outside of student media, just in more professionalized media, that the cost of publishing and printing and the emphasis on digital. At your time in the IDS or even more broadly in your career. How do you see the ways in which student media has responded to further migration among the audience to the internet and digital? What sort of strategies do you think are working in that regard?

JIM RODENBUSH: And it's a really important question at the student media level, because there is at least some prevailing thought that students are still really attached to the to the print newspaper. And, and I know that the IDS they, they receive some of that blowback when they have, you know, in fact, fought for their paper, like the printed paper, not just recently, but a handful of times over the years, the IDS specifically made that transition to digital years ago. You know, the IDS publication simply became one of many products that the ideas had to offer the community. The strategy from the IDS side, and it really has evolved for them since 2017, 2018, really a trend, you know, and I would say maybe even a couple of years before that, the real the real strategy was to be everywhere that your audience is, and you are still reaching people through the print product. And I will defend the need to have a visible print product, but you have people that are reaching you through the desktop, through the phone, through whatever social media platform they may be engaged in. And I you will find the IDS all over the place. And I think the strategy, the most simple strategy is, is to be aware of where your audience is and meet them where they are. And I think the IDS is an excellent job of that.

MATT JORDAN: One of the issues that that has been striking me lately is that you're also at the epicenter of two, let's call them messaging campaigns, where both the universities and the free press are under attack, because both have been cartoon in a way. Right. “Universities are filled with woke kids who have got the mind virus, and the free press is the enemy of the people.” Did that campaign against universities and the Free press come back in the form of backlash or flak against the IDS in a way that you were aware of or made aware of during this time?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, that's a good question. I'm I mean, maybe. Maybe not in the moment. Do you recognize that certain things are happening? But now I can look back and say, sure, there were some things that you can point to. For example, it was approximately a year ago when the idea, its first print edition following the presidential election featured a cover of Donald Trump with various not flattering quotes about him that were in fact delivered by people who had worked and who were associated with him. That cover drew some backlash, including a pretty prominent tweet from the incoming lieutenant governor in the state of Indiana. That was a pretty direct thread about what the IDS is publishing and what it can be done at the state level to correct it. You know, at the time, your concerns maybe not concern to the level that in hindsight that you should have been. But, you know, it's things like that that are that are interesting. And if you combine that just with the general idea of what eventually became this order from the university level to remove news from the newspaper, it kind of all makes sense that the trickling down to the student media level was, in fact, happening. And it's been happening for a little while.

CORY BARKER: You know, follow up on that. I mean, if you can think back now to your time at IU and at the IDS, are there other things that now sort of, in retrospect, you point to as potential signs of some of this pretty clear external pressure that's coming even from the governor's office and lieutenant governor, that's then trickling down to what I think can best be said as a sort of controversial presidential administration there at the university. Are there other things that have happened over the last few years that you now point to and think, you know, that's kind of how we got where we are with the state of the publication and your removal.

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah. I would point to perhaps the past couple of years that, you know, it's been the past two years were a very uncomfortable time on the IU campus in general. You know, if you go back to, you know, the beginning of the Israeli-Hamas conflict, if you go to the what eventually morphed into the demonstrations Dunn Meadow, you know, IU caught a lot of national attention when it had essentially a sniper pointed at its own students as part of those demonstrations. You know, we were on the receiving end of criticism and backlash for our coverage of those protests and our coverage of the issue in general that were unlike anything I had experienced in my time with student media. When you're talking about particularly direct threats of safety to our editor-in-chief at the time, not anything that I have ever dealt with before, being a student media advisor means a lot of things, but during that time period, it meant for the first time that I have to call Indiana University police to talk about the safety of my reporters, and that coincides with so much stuff that was happening at IU that, you know, the transition during the current, as you said, the current president and the current administration at the IU level really has coincided with things changing for the IDS. And again, in the moment, maybe you don't recognize such things because you're not you're not thinking, worst case scenario. But now it's kind of easy to see that, that the things that have happened to the IDS just kind of line up with the campus environment in general.

MATT JORDAN: This is a case where it kind of bumps up against the First Amendment to some degree, but it certainly has a lot to do with the power of economic coercion. Right. You know, I think there are six universities right now that after the, you know, the Gaza protests that you mentioned are under investigation from the current administration in Washington for supposed anti-Semitism. And each of those have been there have been whispers about the, you know, potential financial blowback. And, you know, when you threaten the universities with hundreds of millions of dollars of lost revenue, you're this is kind of an extinction level discourse, right? So, it's not exactly government coercion, but it looks a lot like it, don't you think?

JIM RODENBUSH: You know, they you can connect the dots, right. Of the things that have been going on at IU, specifically, again, the protests and as a result of those protests IU, you know, made several changes, to its policies that all but wiped out the ability to demonstrate like that on campus, moving forward. There have been budget pressures at the state level have been severe, you know, programs being cut, a lot of scaling back on things that had been there before. You know, Indiana in particular, the governor of the state can now appoint every member of the board of trustees and Indiana. And so, it's really easy to connect the dots that you're, you know, as a university, you're in a position where you are likely trying to make sure that nothing is coming from your campus that's going to bring unnecessary attention to you. And particularly bring any unnecessary attention to you at the state level.

CORY BARKER: During these pretty complicated times at the university and for student media, , what struck you the most about how your student journalists sort of responded to this environment, the surrounding context, threats on their lives or safety for doing their job right as student journalists? I mean, what do you want to share or can you share about the response from the student reporters working in that environment?

JIM RODENBUSH: Oh, well, yeah, I, I can't say enough good things about the student reporters at the IDS and particularly the student leadership at the IDS, you know, brave, determined resolve to do the right thing and, you know, that's exactly what I would have expected and have expected over the years. But doing that in a situation when it is becoming increasingly easier to just fall in line with things that are being asked of you, I think makes that kind of courage stand out even more. And I think, you know, in the case of the IDS, that's a product of years of student leadership. You know, the word’s culture, right? This newsroom culture of, of how to approach the job and how to think about their work and their value and what they really are doing for the community. And so, again, standing up in the face of adversity you think would be a default setting, but it again, it just stands out even more when you're in the current climate, when it's actually a lot easier to do the exact opposite thing. And so yeah, forever proud of those of those students.

MATT JORDAN: Increasingly in the national media landscape, in the current political environment, there has been, I guess, what you call a shift away from journalism towards something else, right? Something that might look a lot like public relations or strategic communication. So, there's a kind of pressure from the powerful to move toward public relations that's portrays itself as news. Is that something that you think that universities are particularly susceptible to, given the way that universities are so intent on strategic messaging to their community, to their alumni, etc.?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and again, I could speak specifically to my experience at IU that there, there was, a very visible de-emphasizing of journalism in favor of the broad term that I would use as communications. You’re teaching people to deliver very, plain messaging on, on events that are happening around actual, you know, there is an investigative center that's located within the media school at IU. And so, you know, that that kind of thing is there, but it becomes it has become increasingly more difficult to not only practice journalism within the confines of a university, but to get the kind of, university not just at the administrative level, but at the media school level, to get the kind of support that is really helpful in making sure that you're properly training journalists. And so, this move away from journalism has been a handful of years. You know, I've been at some other universities and there's many that are still trying to do it the right way, but there are many that are struggling with this idea of what it means to practice journalism within a landscape of universities that are looking for everything except that coming from their student media products. And so, yeah, it's absolutely an issue.

CORY BARKER: You just mentioned this, but you've worked in student media for a long time, including here at Penn State with The Daily Collegian. From your point of view, how has the position or the role of student media on college campuses changed in your career? When you're thinking about the evolution of student media within the college campus, what do you feel like has changed the most?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, it's been a struggle for survival, right? I mean, if you have these kind of learning labs and these climates that are meant to mimic, you know, the professional world, you can't necessarily be surprised when the struggles of the professional world also make their way to the student media level. And that's both financing. I only I know that the Daily Collegian has had its own financial questions and issues at the university level, with funding being removed and whatnot. And so, it's an interesting mix of things, because I think that the general survival of student media organizations is a very, very real problem. At the same time, I think the work coming out of student media organizations is better than it's ever been. And so, you have this kind of thing where these students are filling these voids that we talked about earlier, and then they are doing it in, you know, incredible ways. You know, I can go all the way back to when I was a student journalist years and years and years ago. And these students are, you know, writing and reporting and things that we never touched. And so, the work has never been better, but the future has never been murkier. So, it's kind of a weird, a weird space to live in right now.

MATT JORDAN: I've noticed that Indiana isn't the only student newspaper that has cut print distribution. I know that Purdue also just recently halted it as well. But what are other trends that you see in terms of the transformation of student media? Like I read a piece that suggested that student media, student newspapers in particular shouldn't have things like archives because they invite nitpicking people going back, trying to use them and weaponize them as flak against the university. Do you see other things like that that are going on, or are there trends? Trends? That's a tough one. You know, I know that the what to do with your print newspaper is a question for everybody. Right. And so there have been adjustments made to that. But you know, in terms of general trends across student, maybe I do think again, the one thing that you're seeing more and more of that I just don't think existed at the same level was as recently as 10 to 15 years ago, is the in-depth work that's going on enterprise, investigative, like real into the weeds kind of reporting that allows communities and campuses to understand what's going on around them. Is it at a level that I have, you know, it keeps getting better every year. And so that's a positive trend on top of all the other things that are going on.

CORY BARKER: Is there one thing that you attribute to that increase in some of that in-depth reporting, beyond just students being willing to do it? I mean, when you're seeing that emerge as a as an advisor, what are some of the reasons why you think that's happening, why that great work is being produced?

JIM RODENBUSH: Other the I believe that the investment and the passion from the student side is at a level it's never been before. And so I don't think the idea is alone in getting a new generation of student journalists that are really aware of what is going on around them and have a real need to tell the stories. I mean, sometimes it's just that simple. You need people who are passionate would be the right word, right? And they really are invested in what it means to tell a good story. And I think it's really that simple.

MATT JORDAN: We were talking before about how the student newspaper is kind of going out more into the communities, is doing investigative reporting and whatnot. What has been the positive impact of that? I mean, how does that have the communities that the students covered responded positively to the stories, thereby showing the value of the student newspaper?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, we had an, a local organization in Bloomington that awarded the IDS its Community Journalism Award at the start of the fall semester. I thought that was really, you know, that really jumped out because that was traditionally an award that they would give to the professional outlets. Our feedback, and it's really weird juggling between referring to the IDS as we and them at this point. But the IDS feedback over the last handful of years has been overwhelmingly positive, from the Bloomington community to the point of where, you know, a year ago, when the announcement was made that the frequency was going to go from weekly to once every couple of weeks, the response that we got from the community was disappointment was in like, you know, encouragement for keeping some form of the project going and then our engagement and our audience numbers when it came to coverage from the community has skyrocketed, which, you know, that that alone is, is a good measure of something working is the fact that you have evidence that it's being read. And so the response from Bloomington has been great. But, you know, I believe Bloomington in general, to be a really good news community and a community that was wanting, that kind of coverage. And so I think it's been a positive relationship.

CORY BARKER: One of the things I was curious to get your perspective on, given that we've talked about trends and the evolution in student media and its relationship with administration and the community, obviously you've gone through this really controversial and sort of surprising development, but I'm curious what you think about what is the best relationship between a university and its student media.

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, I've had an opportunity to really experience the range, during my time, because it's been 16 years at four different schools. And, you know, I've been in private universities, have been a public universities. I've been at papers directly associated with their schools. I mean, not for profit companies that have been the source of the paper. And so, I really have experienced the wide range of things. And I think there's really a real simple solution at the private school level. It's kind of a different animal because the rules are different. But when it's a public university, editorial freedom is a is. It just is what it is. You know? And I think there's some very well-known developments over the last three weeks that kind of supports how I feel about editorial independence. When it comes to your student paper, the students should be given the freedom to do what is allowed of them, and that is to just do their jobs without that kind of interference. You know, from the university level, I think that it is my hope under the ideal circumstance, that universities can understand what that the role student media plays, not just as a, again, a learning lab for whatever, you know, journalism school or media school as an existence, but also as a great giant advertisement for your university in terms of bringing students there and bringing students and their tuition dollars there. And everything positive that can come from having this forward-facing entity that's representing your school. And then I also think they should financially support it because again, it's doing it's doing things for your university. It's getting attention to your university. It's bringing students to your university. It's getting eyeballs in ways that you couldn't do otherwise. Now, I understand that a lot of people at the university administrative level are not necessarily thrilled with the kind of coverage that can come from student media, but I just think that's part of the relationship. And at the at the end of the day, it's a learning experience that is positive, has positive ramifications. And I think that the perfect relationship is for a university to understand why it's there and to support it in whatever way possible.

MATT JORDAN: One of the other learning features is not just student reporters, but also news consumers. Right? And demographically speaking, the data suggests that the 18 to 22 crowd is not a particularly news literate or, reads much at all. So, I was just wondering, how has the relationship of the student body changed owing to the blowback from the university? I mean, has the controversy made the ideas more central to the university and more pride in it? I'm just hoping that there's a silver lining in terms of the younger generation caring about news.

JIM RODENBUSH: I think so. I know last spring, you know, it was the student government at IU that tried to provide student funding to the IDS in a way of where like, this is, an important institution that's struggling. This is how we can like we had we had student fee funding approved. Then that had to have come from a group of students in order for that to happen. I mean, it was ultimately denied at the administrative level, but it was an incredible gesture from the student level. That, to me, indicated how the paper is being viewed at the campus level. And I know both firsthand and hearing from other people that this most recent round with the administration there has been incredible support from the student level towards the IDS. And yeah, you hope is a silver lining, that perhaps it is a, just as I think university administrators need to come to the table and talk with student media outlets just to reestablish relationships and talk about things. I, I think this is also there's a silver lining, I think, at the very least, can perhaps reignite a little bit of enthusiasm and understanding from the student side of things, what the role of the student media outlet has on campus.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, it seems to me that the response to this incident in your dismissal speaks to the significance of the IDS within the very large alumni base of Indiana University, in the central city of the IDS, to the culture of I you even if among like the current students, maybe they're not as active readers of the website or the occasional print edition as previous generations might be. From your point of view, what are some of the ways that the IDS can leverage this energy to do even more in-depth reporting, or find new ways to reach this audience who's maybe coming back around to the IDS after being, you know, told about it when they came as a as a freshman or, you know, occasionally checking the scores of you basketball and now football of course. But what sort of opportunity does this provide to the IDS and the student journalists working there to try to even expand further their operations and their stature on campus or with alumni?

JIM RODENBUSH: If I were still in the building, these would be the conversations that I would be having with student leaders. And my advice in my former role would have been to put the foot on the gas at this point, you know, even with the 18- to 22-year-old demographic, you know, we were seeing increased engagement across your social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram. So, it's like, it's not like that was a complete detachment from the campus level. It was going back to that idea of finding them where they are. And I think the best thing that the IDS can do right now is to keep doing exactly what it's doing, even with more emphasis, with more manpower, with, you know, one of the things that you know, one of the advantages that a lot of student media outlets have and, and particularly in IDS, is volume. You know, you have a local paper who's available. Reporters are now in the single digits at the IDS. You're looking at a staff of over 200 students, and that's just 200 students, but 200 students with a wide range of media skills. And, you know, take advantage of your resources and the reach and just cover the town and cover the campus harder, because people are paying attention right now. And that's another thing that I would emphasize, that I'm still having these meetings, is that this is a moment you have eyes on you right now. What are you going to do in response? And my suggestion would be keep doing exactly what you're doing.

MATT JORDAN: You know, as you said, this is a moment and sometimes it and I think this is the case with journalism across the board right now is that people don't know what they have until they start to lose it. Right. And so, it sounds like the administration at IU has realized that they may have overstepped and they're walking things back. And that moments I wonder if you think that could also be trickling out to the rich donors and the politicos who have been kind of putting their thumb on the scale against the IDS?

JIM RODENBUSH: I think from a donation side, I would say, yes. You know, Mark Cuban specifically made some headlines talking about his particular donations to the IDS. I think the kind of attention that's going on right now can help from that sort of perspective. I'm very skeptical about the university's motivations in terms of rolling back prints. So, I'm not in a position of where I would necessarily celebrate them taking back the saying they never should have taken to begin with. And so how that moves forward, I mean, I would very much be in a wait and see kind of perspective, but most certainly from a donation side and from a people willing to support with their pocketbooks. I don't know this for sure because it's, you know, it's not my literally not my job anymore. But I would suspect that the IDS is likely experiencing a boost from that side of things.

CORY BARKER: Thinking more broadly, what do you think that the general public, or even alums of universities with great student media misunderstand or don't know about student media, that the people who work there, you know, its role in campus communities and larger communities. What do you feel like the larger public and citizenry should know more about?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, it's really, it's student led and student driven. I've had multiple experiences over the years, and I would say more so recently at IU, where people just assumed that I was in charge in terms of all content decisions. And I had many a conversation that began with some version of, you know, I'm not the editor, and I think people really need to understand and not just understand, but in and by extension, I appreciate and support the fact that it is students that are driving this surge in content and investigative reporting, like it's being student led and it's being student driven, and that's really a big deal because these are, in fact, your future reporters and your future media practitioners. And I think the kind of work and experience and exposure that they're getting right now is something that a lot of people should be paying attention to. And then, by extension, the role that directors are newsroom advisors or support staff have is something else that I think needs to really be paid attention to. Like, again, I have never made a content decision in all my time. I've never had, never wanted to because editorial freedom and editorial independence is a very, very real thing. But at the same time, when you when you have those kind of conversations, then people who don't understand tend to go to the very opposite direction, and then they think that you don't do anything at all. And I think the understanding that this is a true learning lab environment where the responsibility is with the students and people in my role are, in fact, serving as educators in this real-world scenario. And the fact that it is like it's beautiful chaos that that's happening at every student media organization. I think that is something that needs to be understood and appreciated more.

MATT JORDAN: How have the other student media orgs at Indiana fared during this time?

JIM RODENBUSH: I think, you know, in a in a way, they have benefited somewhat from the spotlight being on the IDS, and the spotlight is on the IDS because of, you know, well-publicized financial issues and, you know, simply a longer history and a broader audience. But at the same time, the radio station and the television station are also doing the same work. And the TV station in particular has done wonderfully. And grabbing on to the same concepts of covering the campus and covering in the community. Now, I would say that they might have done it a little more quietly, because all of this attention has gone to the newspaper, but I think they're trying to do the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances and should also be applauded as well.

CORY BARKER: You know, tying some of these threads together. It seems to me that and I guess I'm speaking as a as a former student journalist. So I have a clear perspective on this, but that the work that student journalists are doing in these communities, that that is increasingly valued by people outside of the campus bubble, that student journalists in some ways are a potential outlet to rebuild trust in journalism, because you're getting that kind of first wave of awareness and patterns of consumption and news from your fellow students at an institution that you probably have some emotional connection to because you picked it as your university, right. How do you feel about that idea?

JIM RODENBUSH: I've had those have those conversations all the time. You know, I had the director roll the ideas, but I also taught reporting classes within the media school. And so, a lot of the people that were on the staff of the ideas were also students of mine in the classroom. And one of the things that I have talked about and championed, and this exact second, is this idea that not only are you interacting with the community in a way that you that you know, but a student media outlet hasn't necessarily done so before, but you're also in this role of where you might very well be a person's first ever interaction with the media, and you're the first person that they've put their trust in to tell their story and how that interaction goes and how that relationship goes can go a long way in determining how that one person who was the source of your story feels about the media in general. Because again, you're touching stories at a local level where people may not have had their story told before. And so, there is great importance and great responsibility in that relationship, not just for the success of the IDS, but about a bigger picture. And just like you said, of rebuilding perception and trust in how the media operates. And, you know, I you know, I think news at the professional level, there's it's difficult to even for people with the best of intentions. It's difficult. Right. You know, the one thing that I can say about the student media level is that you can be certain that the student journalists that you are encountering are 100% trying to do it the right way. And so, I think that alone is crucial that, you know, they have this approach, they've been given this great responsibility and how that can, you know, somehow improve the greater perception of journalists, I think is a very real thing because like everything else, it starts at the local level. Right? And so, if you have people within Bloomington that have a positive outlook on the IDS, you would hope that that can only extend to other outlets and up the ladder when it comes to journalism and media.

MATT JORDAN: Has the Indiana student media extended beyond Bloomington at all. I mean, have they moved into the spaces in Indiana that are real news deserts there where there isn't any coverage?

JIM RODENBUSH: We had begun a project just at the very start of the fall semester, where we were extending into the into a neighboring town of Albertville to begin to cover that community in the same way. Obviously, I won't be around to see how that goes, but I do know that the goal behind that was to, in fact, take this Bloomington centric coverage and at least begin to see if we can apply the ideas to some neighboring towns. And then you occasionally, you know, there's been Indianapolis based stories when they've been of like particular importance to Bloomington on the campus. But in terms of like community centric, that's really just this semester had been the start of kind of expanding beyond Bloomington.

MATT JORDAN: Jim, thanks so much for being with us and to letting us know about, what's going on there. I wish you the very best in whatever your future endeavors are. And thanks again for talking with us.

JIM RODENBUSH: All right. Thank you both.

MATT JORDAN: That was really interesting conversation that touched on so many issues. And I just wondered, as a former reporter there and a former student there, what you're what you're feeling is.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, I mean, personally, I have a lot of things to say that I wouldn't say in a professional context here, but I feel like the one thing that I kept coming back to in Jim's responses is just the intense pressure that student media is under from so many different directions. Right? The political, discursive attacks that are coming from campus and statewide officials, the types of pressures that are coming on the infrastructure from an economic standpoint, the technological and audience pressures to try to figure out how to reach an increasingly diversified. And as he mentioned there at the end of our conversation, you know, sort of expanding geographic audience, right? The number of ways that student journalists are navigating all of these pressures and publishing significant stories, not just in Indiana, but here in State College with The Daily Collegian and across the country at these student papers. I think it's just so impressive. What are you what are your big takeaways?

MATT JORDAN: I agree, I mean, in many ways, student journalists are in a, I guess I should say, shouldn't say more. But in an increasingly, they, they have some leeway that some of the other newspapers don't have now. I mean, we've seen such a concentration in conglomeration of media and such editorial pressure being put on them by owners that there's something about student media that makes it much more like public media, where they don't have the economic coercive pressures that you're seeing in The Washington Post, in The New York Times, where the powerful are censoring what they can say. So, I think these students are really, truly having a learning lab experience where they are jumping right into the fire and learning their craft as they go.

CORY BARKER: Yeah. And for our audience, I feel like, you know, maybe our audience is not the ones who need to hear this, right? But I do consume news from student media and your communities. You know, if you've moved away from where you went to college, think about reconnecting with student media in those places, not only to reconnect with where you went to college or where you're from previously, but because, as we've discussed, I think student media and student journalists are going to be increasingly essential and critical to whatever evolutions we see in local news in the coming years.

MATT JORDAN And I agree, students are the future. That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guest was Jim Rodenbush, former director of student media at Indiana University. To learn more, visit newsovernoise.org. I'm Matt Jordan and I'm Cory Barker. Until next time, stay well and well informed. News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald Bellisario College of Communications and PSU. This program has been funded by the office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy Initiative.

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MATT JORDAN: Season four of News Over Noise officially launches in January. But this conversation felt too timely to hold. Our guest is making headlines due to an active lawsuit, so we wanted to share this conversation early. Enjoy this preview of what's to come.

CORY BARKER: In the fall of 2025. The Indiana Daily Student, one of the most respected student newspapers in the country, published a series of stories that didn't sit well with the university leadership. They cover topics like campus safety and administrative decisions. These weren't sensationalist pieces. They were solid, straightforward journalism. The kind of stories that hold public institutions accountable. But behind the scenes, administrators began to push back. According to reporting by the Indianapolis Star and the Poynter Institute, leadership at Indiana University's Media school began questioning how the student newsroom operated and what stories it chose to run. They allegedly asked the paper's advisor, Jim Rodenbush to stop students from publishing certain pieces, particularly those critical of the university.

MATT JORDAN: Rodenbush says he made it clear he wouldn't tell his students what they could or couldn't print. Soon after, he was fired. The university offered little explanation, but for journalists and educators across the country, the message felt unmistakable. Even student newsrooms aren't immune from institutional control. The events at IU are about more than just a personnel dispute. They raise larger questions about who controls information inside public institutions, and what happens when that control starts to look more like censorship and stewardship. To help us understand what happened at Indiana and what it says about the larger fight for press freedom on campus, we're talking with Jim Rodenbush, a longtime student media adviser and former director of student media at IU. Jim spent 16 years mentoring young reporters for his time at Indiana University. He managed student media programs at Colorado State, Webster University and here at Penn State. Jim Rodenbush, welcome to News Over Noise.

JIM RODENBUSH: Thank you very much for having me. Obviously, this case is at a time when there is a lot of discussion about the role of the free press and about the role of student media in a larger media ecosystem. And I just wanted to ask you some questions about the niche that student journalism serves at Indiana University and beyond. I would say specifically at Indiana University, you're looking at student media outlets, not just the Indiana Daily Student, but also, you know, Indiana University student television networks, radio. Those are outlets that are filling a coverage need. You know, Bloomington, Indiana, is no different than a lot of towns across the country that are seeing declines in staffing at their local newspapers. Changes to the structure of their local newspaper, to where there are things that simply aren't being covered or aren't being covered like they used to because there aren't available reporters. And so, you're seeing it everywhere that student media outlets are kind of, you know, plugging that gap and providing critical coverage to not just the towns that they are in, but the campuses that they cover. And I think that's a huge void that they're that they're currently filling.

CORY BARKER: Jim, as a two-time alum of IU and a former staffer and a desk editor at the IDS, it's it’s a real great honor to chat with you, unfortunately, under these circumstances. But to follow up what you were just getting to there about student journalists filling this role, especially in growing news deserts. Can you talk a little bit about how you and your student journalists thought about that? You know that editorial conversations that are happening related to how students might cover Bloomington, broader Monroe County, southwest Indiana, those sort of things, south central Indiana. Can you give us a little insight about what those conversations have been like?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, I think within the last 2 or 3 years. And I'm, you know, I'm speaking specifically to the ideas. I think there has been a real focus on not just coming to the ideas to, you know, the practice skills or to come to this learning lab, this training ground to be reporters. But the students have started to ask themselves, like, what does it mean to be in this role? And with that comes this increased focus on, okay, who are our audiences and how best can we serve these audiences? And the real transition and thinking was inherently; you think that the student newspaper is covering the campus that it's on. But we have begun to notice really, really significant increases in our audience numbers and our newspapers being picked up by people within the Bloomington community. And when you begin to pay attention to that, and you begin to ask yourself, okay, what does that mean? And how can we better serve this new crop of audience that is coming our way? The students really jumped into the mission of, okay, how can we cover Bloomington in a way that is productive? And what you are seeing, if, you know, if you take a deep dive into the IDS, is government reporting happening, schools and education being covered, you know, the type of areas to where you're serving an audience and telling them what important things are going on in their community. It's been a really great transformation because it reflects that these students are not just thinking about what they can gain from a student paper, but they're thinking about how they can serve at the same time. And it's been it was a really been a pleasure to have to be alongside of that for the last handful of years.

MATT JORDAN: It's interesting that, you know, often when we discuss local news, we talk about how important it is for bringing home larger issues to places where people understand their, their, the places they belong, where they feel a sense of community. And really, universities right now are at the front line of a whole lot of national things going on because of the attacks on universities, the visa denials to students, all of these policies that are really come home to roost in the local universities. How did your students go about covering those issues and bringing the stories about local impact home to audiences?

JIM RODENBUSH: I don't know if there was any real magic formula, you know, there at the student media level. What I've said before is that you are as close to a professional newsroom setting without being a professional newsroom setting, and I think it wasn't anything other than like, this is these are the important issues that are going on. Like, you know, they didn't have to, you know, think really hard about that because, you know, as 18- to 22-year-olds, these are also issues that are impacting them directly. And so, if you begin to think about it that way, it's not really that difficult to grasp on to the things that you should be covering. And again, I don't think there was any other any magical answer than just being aware of the world and the campaigns that was going on around,

CORY BARKER: You know, one of the issues that's come up quite a bit in the controversy related to the administration's decisions related to the IDS that affect you in the potential printing of the IDS, which at this time of recording has now subsequently been rolled back, that they are going to allow printing of issues of the IDS moving forward. But a lot of the conversation sort of surrounding this idea that the cost of printing and that the audience has migrated primarily to the internet or digital spaces to some extent, that's obviously true, right? We see that across the industry, outside of student media, just in more professionalized media, that the cost of publishing and printing and the emphasis on digital. At your time in the IDS or even more broadly in your career. How do you see the ways in which student media has responded to further migration among the audience to the internet and digital? What sort of strategies do you think are working in that regard?

JIM RODENBUSH: And it's a really important question at the student media level, because there is at least some prevailing thought that students are still really attached to the to the print newspaper. And, and I know that the IDS they, they receive some of that blowback when they have, you know, in fact, fought for their paper, like the printed paper, not just recently, but a handful of times over the years, the IDS specifically made that transition to digital years ago. You know, the IDS publication simply became one of many products that the ideas had to offer the community. The strategy from the IDS side, and it really has evolved for them since 2017, 2018, really a trend, you know, and I would say maybe even a couple of years before that, the real the real strategy was to be everywhere that your audience is, and you are still reaching people through the print product. And I will defend the need to have a visible print product, but you have people that are reaching you through the desktop, through the phone, through whatever social media platform they may be engaged in. And I you will find the IDS all over the place. And I think the strategy, the most simple strategy is, is to be aware of where your audience is and meet them where they are. And I think the IDS is an excellent job of that.

MATT JORDAN: One of the issues that that has been striking me lately is that you're also at the epicenter of two, let's call them messaging campaigns, where both the universities and the free press are under attack, because both have been cartoon in a way. Right. “Universities are filled with woke kids who have got the mind virus, and the free press is the enemy of the people.” Did that campaign against universities and the Free press come back in the form of backlash or flak against the IDS in a way that you were aware of or made aware of during this time?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, that's a good question. I'm I mean, maybe. Maybe not in the moment. Do you recognize that certain things are happening? But now I can look back and say, sure, there were some things that you can point to. For example, it was approximately a year ago when the idea, its first print edition following the presidential election featured a cover of Donald Trump with various not flattering quotes about him that were in fact delivered by people who had worked and who were associated with him. That cover drew some backlash, including a pretty prominent tweet from the incoming lieutenant governor in the state of Indiana. That was a pretty direct thread about what the IDS is publishing and what it can be done at the state level to correct it. You know, at the time, your concerns maybe not concern to the level that in hindsight that you should have been. But, you know, it's things like that that are that are interesting. And if you combine that just with the general idea of what eventually became this order from the university level to remove news from the newspaper, it kind of all makes sense that the trickling down to the student media level was, in fact, happening. And it's been happening for a little while.

CORY BARKER: You know, follow up on that. I mean, if you can think back now to your time at IU and at the IDS, are there other things that now sort of, in retrospect, you point to as potential signs of some of this pretty clear external pressure that's coming even from the governor's office and lieutenant governor, that's then trickling down to what I think can best be said as a sort of controversial presidential administration there at the university. Are there other things that have happened over the last few years that you now point to and think, you know, that's kind of how we got where we are with the state of the publication and your removal.

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah. I would point to perhaps the past couple of years that, you know, it's been the past two years were a very uncomfortable time on the IU campus in general. You know, if you go back to, you know, the beginning of the Israeli-Hamas conflict, if you go to the what eventually morphed into the demonstrations Dunn Meadow, you know, IU caught a lot of national attention when it had essentially a sniper pointed at its own students as part of those demonstrations. You know, we were on the receiving end of criticism and backlash for our coverage of those protests and our coverage of the issue in general that were unlike anything I had experienced in my time with student media. When you're talking about particularly direct threats of safety to our editor-in-chief at the time, not anything that I have ever dealt with before, being a student media advisor means a lot of things, but during that time period, it meant for the first time that I have to call Indiana University police to talk about the safety of my reporters, and that coincides with so much stuff that was happening at IU that, you know, the transition during the current, as you said, the current president and the current administration at the IU level really has coincided with things changing for the IDS. And again, in the moment, maybe you don't recognize such things because you're not you're not thinking, worst case scenario. But now it's kind of easy to see that, that the things that have happened to the IDS just kind of line up with the campus environment in general.

MATT JORDAN: This is a case where it kind of bumps up against the First Amendment to some degree, but it certainly has a lot to do with the power of economic coercion. Right. You know, I think there are six universities right now that after the, you know, the Gaza protests that you mentioned are under investigation from the current administration in Washington for supposed anti-Semitism. And each of those have been there have been whispers about the, you know, potential financial blowback. And, you know, when you threaten the universities with hundreds of millions of dollars of lost revenue, you're this is kind of an extinction level discourse, right? So, it's not exactly government coercion, but it looks a lot like it, don't you think?

JIM RODENBUSH: You know, they you can connect the dots, right. Of the things that have been going on at IU, specifically, again, the protests and as a result of those protests IU, you know, made several changes, to its policies that all but wiped out the ability to demonstrate like that on campus, moving forward. There have been budget pressures at the state level have been severe, you know, programs being cut, a lot of scaling back on things that had been there before. You know, Indiana in particular, the governor of the state can now appoint every member of the board of trustees and Indiana. And so, it's really easy to connect the dots that you're, you know, as a university, you're in a position where you are likely trying to make sure that nothing is coming from your campus that's going to bring unnecessary attention to you. And particularly bring any unnecessary attention to you at the state level.

CORY BARKER: During these pretty complicated times at the university and for student media, , what struck you the most about how your student journalists sort of responded to this environment, the surrounding context, threats on their lives or safety for doing their job right as student journalists? I mean, what do you want to share or can you share about the response from the student reporters working in that environment?

JIM RODENBUSH: Oh, well, yeah, I, I can't say enough good things about the student reporters at the IDS and particularly the student leadership at the IDS, you know, brave, determined resolve to do the right thing and, you know, that's exactly what I would have expected and have expected over the years. But doing that in a situation when it is becoming increasingly easier to just fall in line with things that are being asked of you, I think makes that kind of courage stand out even more. And I think, you know, in the case of the IDS, that's a product of years of student leadership. You know, the word’s culture, right? This newsroom culture of, of how to approach the job and how to think about their work and their value and what they really are doing for the community. And so, again, standing up in the face of adversity you think would be a default setting, but it again, it just stands out even more when you're in the current climate, when it's actually a lot easier to do the exact opposite thing. And so yeah, forever proud of those of those students.

MATT JORDAN: Increasingly in the national media landscape, in the current political environment, there has been, I guess, what you call a shift away from journalism towards something else, right? Something that might look a lot like public relations or strategic communication. So, there's a kind of pressure from the powerful to move toward public relations that's portrays itself as news. Is that something that you think that universities are particularly susceptible to, given the way that universities are so intent on strategic messaging to their community, to their alumni, etc.?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and again, I could speak specifically to my experience at IU that there, there was, a very visible de-emphasizing of journalism in favor of the broad term that I would use as communications. You’re teaching people to deliver very, plain messaging on, on events that are happening around actual, you know, there is an investigative center that's located within the media school at IU. And so, you know, that that kind of thing is there, but it becomes it has become increasingly more difficult to not only practice journalism within the confines of a university, but to get the kind of, university not just at the administrative level, but at the media school level, to get the kind of support that is really helpful in making sure that you're properly training journalists. And so, this move away from journalism has been a handful of years. You know, I've been at some other universities and there's many that are still trying to do it the right way, but there are many that are struggling with this idea of what it means to practice journalism within a landscape of universities that are looking for everything except that coming from their student media products. And so, yeah, it's absolutely an issue.

CORY BARKER: You just mentioned this, but you've worked in student media for a long time, including here at Penn State with The Daily Collegian. From your point of view, how has the position or the role of student media on college campuses changed in your career? When you're thinking about the evolution of student media within the college campus, what do you feel like has changed the most?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, it's been a struggle for survival, right? I mean, if you have these kind of learning labs and these climates that are meant to mimic, you know, the professional world, you can't necessarily be surprised when the struggles of the professional world also make their way to the student media level. And that's both financing. I only I know that the Daily Collegian has had its own financial questions and issues at the university level, with funding being removed and whatnot. And so, it's an interesting mix of things, because I think that the general survival of student media organizations is a very, very real problem. At the same time, I think the work coming out of student media organizations is better than it's ever been. And so, you have this kind of thing where these students are filling these voids that we talked about earlier, and then they are doing it in, you know, incredible ways. You know, I can go all the way back to when I was a student journalist years and years and years ago. And these students are, you know, writing and reporting and things that we never touched. And so, the work has never been better, but the future has never been murkier. So, it's kind of a weird, a weird space to live in right now.

MATT JORDAN: I've noticed that Indiana isn't the only student newspaper that has cut print distribution. I know that Purdue also just recently halted it as well. But what are other trends that you see in terms of the transformation of student media? Like I read a piece that suggested that student media, student newspapers in particular shouldn't have things like archives because they invite nitpicking people going back, trying to use them and weaponize them as flak against the university. Do you see other things like that that are going on, or are there trends? Trends? That's a tough one. You know, I know that the what to do with your print newspaper is a question for everybody. Right. And so there have been adjustments made to that. But you know, in terms of general trends across student, maybe I do think again, the one thing that you're seeing more and more of that I just don't think existed at the same level was as recently as 10 to 15 years ago, is the in-depth work that's going on enterprise, investigative, like real into the weeds kind of reporting that allows communities and campuses to understand what's going on around them. Is it at a level that I have, you know, it keeps getting better every year. And so that's a positive trend on top of all the other things that are going on.

CORY BARKER: Is there one thing that you attribute to that increase in some of that in-depth reporting, beyond just students being willing to do it? I mean, when you're seeing that emerge as a as an advisor, what are some of the reasons why you think that's happening, why that great work is being produced?

JIM RODENBUSH: Other the I believe that the investment and the passion from the student side is at a level it's never been before. And so I don't think the idea is alone in getting a new generation of student journalists that are really aware of what is going on around them and have a real need to tell the stories. I mean, sometimes it's just that simple. You need people who are passionate would be the right word, right? And they really are invested in what it means to tell a good story. And I think it's really that simple.

MATT JORDAN: We were talking before about how the student newspaper is kind of going out more into the communities, is doing investigative reporting and whatnot. What has been the positive impact of that? I mean, how does that have the communities that the students covered responded positively to the stories, thereby showing the value of the student newspaper?

JIM RODENBUSH: Well, we had an, a local organization in Bloomington that awarded the IDS its Community Journalism Award at the start of the fall semester. I thought that was really, you know, that really jumped out because that was traditionally an award that they would give to the professional outlets. Our feedback, and it's really weird juggling between referring to the IDS as we and them at this point. But the IDS feedback over the last handful of years has been overwhelmingly positive, from the Bloomington community to the point of where, you know, a year ago, when the announcement was made that the frequency was going to go from weekly to once every couple of weeks, the response that we got from the community was disappointment was in like, you know, encouragement for keeping some form of the project going and then our engagement and our audience numbers when it came to coverage from the community has skyrocketed, which, you know, that that alone is, is a good measure of something working is the fact that you have evidence that it's being read. And so the response from Bloomington has been great. But, you know, I believe Bloomington in general, to be a really good news community and a community that was wanting, that kind of coverage. And so I think it's been a positive relationship.

CORY BARKER: One of the things I was curious to get your perspective on, given that we've talked about trends and the evolution in student media and its relationship with administration and the community, obviously you've gone through this really controversial and sort of surprising development, but I'm curious what you think about what is the best relationship between a university and its student media.

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, I've had an opportunity to really experience the range, during my time, because it's been 16 years at four different schools. And, you know, I've been in private universities, have been a public universities. I've been at papers directly associated with their schools. I mean, not for profit companies that have been the source of the paper. And so, I really have experienced the wide range of things. And I think there's really a real simple solution at the private school level. It's kind of a different animal because the rules are different. But when it's a public university, editorial freedom is a is. It just is what it is. You know? And I think there's some very well-known developments over the last three weeks that kind of supports how I feel about editorial independence. When it comes to your student paper, the students should be given the freedom to do what is allowed of them, and that is to just do their jobs without that kind of interference. You know, from the university level, I think that it is my hope under the ideal circumstance, that universities can understand what that the role student media plays, not just as a, again, a learning lab for whatever, you know, journalism school or media school as an existence, but also as a great giant advertisement for your university in terms of bringing students there and bringing students and their tuition dollars there. And everything positive that can come from having this forward-facing entity that's representing your school. And then I also think they should financially support it because again, it's doing it's doing things for your university. It's getting attention to your university. It's bringing students to your university. It's getting eyeballs in ways that you couldn't do otherwise. Now, I understand that a lot of people at the university administrative level are not necessarily thrilled with the kind of coverage that can come from student media, but I just think that's part of the relationship. And at the at the end of the day, it's a learning experience that is positive, has positive ramifications. And I think that the perfect relationship is for a university to understand why it's there and to support it in whatever way possible.

MATT JORDAN: One of the other learning features is not just student reporters, but also news consumers. Right? And demographically speaking, the data suggests that the 18 to 22 crowd is not a particularly news literate or, reads much at all. So, I was just wondering, how has the relationship of the student body changed owing to the blowback from the university? I mean, has the controversy made the ideas more central to the university and more pride in it? I'm just hoping that there's a silver lining in terms of the younger generation caring about news.

JIM RODENBUSH: I think so. I know last spring, you know, it was the student government at IU that tried to provide student funding to the IDS in a way of where like, this is, an important institution that's struggling. This is how we can like we had we had student fee funding approved. Then that had to have come from a group of students in order for that to happen. I mean, it was ultimately denied at the administrative level, but it was an incredible gesture from the student level. That, to me, indicated how the paper is being viewed at the campus level. And I know both firsthand and hearing from other people that this most recent round with the administration there has been incredible support from the student level towards the IDS. And yeah, you hope is a silver lining, that perhaps it is a, just as I think university administrators need to come to the table and talk with student media outlets just to reestablish relationships and talk about things. I, I think this is also there's a silver lining, I think, at the very least, can perhaps reignite a little bit of enthusiasm and understanding from the student side of things, what the role of the student media outlet has on campus.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, it seems to me that the response to this incident in your dismissal speaks to the significance of the IDS within the very large alumni base of Indiana University, in the central city of the IDS, to the culture of I you even if among like the current students, maybe they're not as active readers of the website or the occasional print edition as previous generations might be. From your point of view, what are some of the ways that the IDS can leverage this energy to do even more in-depth reporting, or find new ways to reach this audience who's maybe coming back around to the IDS after being, you know, told about it when they came as a as a freshman or, you know, occasionally checking the scores of you basketball and now football of course. But what sort of opportunity does this provide to the IDS and the student journalists working there to try to even expand further their operations and their stature on campus or with alumni?

JIM RODENBUSH: If I were still in the building, these would be the conversations that I would be having with student leaders. And my advice in my former role would have been to put the foot on the gas at this point, you know, even with the 18- to 22-year-old demographic, you know, we were seeing increased engagement across your social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram. So, it's like, it's not like that was a complete detachment from the campus level. It was going back to that idea of finding them where they are. And I think the best thing that the IDS can do right now is to keep doing exactly what it's doing, even with more emphasis, with more manpower, with, you know, one of the things that you know, one of the advantages that a lot of student media outlets have and, and particularly in IDS, is volume. You know, you have a local paper who's available. Reporters are now in the single digits at the IDS. You're looking at a staff of over 200 students, and that's just 200 students, but 200 students with a wide range of media skills. And, you know, take advantage of your resources and the reach and just cover the town and cover the campus harder, because people are paying attention right now. And that's another thing that I would emphasize, that I'm still having these meetings, is that this is a moment you have eyes on you right now. What are you going to do in response? And my suggestion would be keep doing exactly what you're doing.

MATT JORDAN: You know, as you said, this is a moment and sometimes it and I think this is the case with journalism across the board right now is that people don't know what they have until they start to lose it. Right. And so, it sounds like the administration at IU has realized that they may have overstepped and they're walking things back. And that moments I wonder if you think that could also be trickling out to the rich donors and the politicos who have been kind of putting their thumb on the scale against the IDS?

JIM RODENBUSH: I think from a donation side, I would say, yes. You know, Mark Cuban specifically made some headlines talking about his particular donations to the IDS. I think the kind of attention that's going on right now can help from that sort of perspective. I'm very skeptical about the university's motivations in terms of rolling back prints. So, I'm not in a position of where I would necessarily celebrate them taking back the saying they never should have taken to begin with. And so how that moves forward, I mean, I would very much be in a wait and see kind of perspective, but most certainly from a donation side and from a people willing to support with their pocketbooks. I don't know this for sure because it's, you know, it's not my literally not my job anymore. But I would suspect that the IDS is likely experiencing a boost from that side of things.

CORY BARKER: Thinking more broadly, what do you think that the general public, or even alums of universities with great student media misunderstand or don't know about student media, that the people who work there, you know, its role in campus communities and larger communities. What do you feel like the larger public and citizenry should know more about?

JIM RODENBUSH: Yeah, it's really, it's student led and student driven. I've had multiple experiences over the years, and I would say more so recently at IU, where people just assumed that I was in charge in terms of all content decisions. And I had many a conversation that began with some version of, you know, I'm not the editor, and I think people really need to understand and not just understand, but in and by extension, I appreciate and support the fact that it is students that are driving this surge in content and investigative reporting, like it's being student led and it's being student driven, and that's really a big deal because these are, in fact, your future reporters and your future media practitioners. And I think the kind of work and experience and exposure that they're getting right now is something that a lot of people should be paying attention to. And then, by extension, the role that directors are newsroom advisors or support staff have is something else that I think needs to really be paid attention to. Like, again, I have never made a content decision in all my time. I've never had, never wanted to because editorial freedom and editorial independence is a very, very real thing. But at the same time, when you when you have those kind of conversations, then people who don't understand tend to go to the very opposite direction, and then they think that you don't do anything at all. And I think the understanding that this is a true learning lab environment where the responsibility is with the students and people in my role are, in fact, serving as educators in this real-world scenario. And the fact that it is like it's beautiful chaos that that's happening at every student media organization. I think that is something that needs to be understood and appreciated more.

MATT JORDAN: How have the other student media orgs at Indiana fared during this time?

JIM RODENBUSH: I think, you know, in a in a way, they have benefited somewhat from the spotlight being on the IDS, and the spotlight is on the IDS because of, you know, well-publicized financial issues and, you know, simply a longer history and a broader audience. But at the same time, the radio station and the television station are also doing the same work. And the TV station in particular has done wonderfully. And grabbing on to the same concepts of covering the campus and covering in the community. Now, I would say that they might have done it a little more quietly, because all of this attention has gone to the newspaper, but I think they're trying to do the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances and should also be applauded as well.

CORY BARKER: You know, tying some of these threads together. It seems to me that and I guess I'm speaking as a as a former student journalist. So I have a clear perspective on this, but that the work that student journalists are doing in these communities, that that is increasingly valued by people outside of the campus bubble, that student journalists in some ways are a potential outlet to rebuild trust in journalism, because you're getting that kind of first wave of awareness and patterns of consumption and news from your fellow students at an institution that you probably have some emotional connection to because you picked it as your university, right. How do you feel about that idea?

JIM RODENBUSH: I've had those have those conversations all the time. You know, I had the director roll the ideas, but I also taught reporting classes within the media school. And so, a lot of the people that were on the staff of the ideas were also students of mine in the classroom. And one of the things that I have talked about and championed, and this exact second, is this idea that not only are you interacting with the community in a way that you that you know, but a student media outlet hasn't necessarily done so before, but you're also in this role of where you might very well be a person's first ever interaction with the media, and you're the first person that they've put their trust in to tell their story and how that interaction goes and how that relationship goes can go a long way in determining how that one person who was the source of your story feels about the media in general. Because again, you're touching stories at a local level where people may not have had their story told before. And so, there is great importance and great responsibility in that relationship, not just for the success of the IDS, but about a bigger picture. And just like you said, of rebuilding perception and trust in how the media operates. And, you know, I you know, I think news at the professional level, there's it's difficult to even for people with the best of intentions. It's difficult. Right. You know, the one thing that I can say about the student media level is that you can be certain that the student journalists that you are encountering are 100% trying to do it the right way. And so, I think that alone is crucial that, you know, they have this approach, they've been given this great responsibility and how that can, you know, somehow improve the greater perception of journalists, I think is a very real thing because like everything else, it starts at the local level. Right? And so, if you have people within Bloomington that have a positive outlook on the IDS, you would hope that that can only extend to other outlets and up the ladder when it comes to journalism and media.

MATT JORDAN: Has the Indiana student media extended beyond Bloomington at all. I mean, have they moved into the spaces in Indiana that are real news deserts there where there isn't any coverage?

JIM RODENBUSH: We had begun a project just at the very start of the fall semester, where we were extending into the into a neighboring town of Albertville to begin to cover that community in the same way. Obviously, I won't be around to see how that goes, but I do know that the goal behind that was to, in fact, take this Bloomington centric coverage and at least begin to see if we can apply the ideas to some neighboring towns. And then you occasionally, you know, there's been Indianapolis based stories when they've been of like particular importance to Bloomington on the campus. But in terms of like community centric, that's really just this semester had been the start of kind of expanding beyond Bloomington.

MATT JORDAN: Jim, thanks so much for being with us and to letting us know about, what's going on there. I wish you the very best in whatever your future endeavors are. And thanks again for talking with us.

JIM RODENBUSH: All right. Thank you both.

MATT JORDAN: That was really interesting conversation that touched on so many issues. And I just wondered, as a former reporter there and a former student there, what you're what you're feeling is.

CORY BARKER: Yeah, I mean, personally, I have a lot of things to say that I wouldn't say in a professional context here, but I feel like the one thing that I kept coming back to in Jim's responses is just the intense pressure that student media is under from so many different directions. Right? The political, discursive attacks that are coming from campus and statewide officials, the types of pressures that are coming on the infrastructure from an economic standpoint, the technological and audience pressures to try to figure out how to reach an increasingly diversified. And as he mentioned there at the end of our conversation, you know, sort of expanding geographic audience, right? The number of ways that student journalists are navigating all of these pressures and publishing significant stories, not just in Indiana, but here in State College with The Daily Collegian and across the country at these student papers. I think it's just so impressive. What are you what are your big takeaways?

MATT JORDAN: I agree, I mean, in many ways, student journalists are in a, I guess I should say, shouldn't say more. But in an increasingly, they, they have some leeway that some of the other newspapers don't have now. I mean, we've seen such a concentration in conglomeration of media and such editorial pressure being put on them by owners that there's something about student media that makes it much more like public media, where they don't have the economic coercive pressures that you're seeing in The Washington Post, in The New York Times, where the powerful are censoring what they can say. So, I think these students are really, truly having a learning lab experience where they are jumping right into the fire and learning their craft as they go.

CORY BARKER: Yeah. And for our audience, I feel like, you know, maybe our audience is not the ones who need to hear this, right? But I do consume news from student media and your communities. You know, if you've moved away from where you went to college, think about reconnecting with student media in those places, not only to reconnect with where you went to college or where you're from previously, but because, as we've discussed, I think student media and student journalists are going to be increasingly essential and critical to whatever evolutions we see in local news in the coming years.

MATT JORDAN And I agree, students are the future. That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guest was Jim Rodenbush, former director of student media at Indiana University. To learn more, visit newsovernoise.org. I'm Matt Jordan and I'm Cory Barker. Until next time, stay well and well informed. News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald Bellisario College of Communications and PSU. This program has been funded by the office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy Initiative.

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