Media Literacy Week

MATT: Hello, I'm Matt Jordan, Director of Penn State's News Literacy Initiative, and host of News Over Noise. On this special U.S. Media Literacy Week edition of News Over Noise we'll be talking with two people from the National Association for Media Literacy Education who helped direct this week. NAMLE Executive Director Michelle Ciulla Lipkin and NAMLE Education Manager Megan Fromm. The annual U.S. Media Literacy Week is hosted by the National Association for Media Literacy Education, NAMLE, and the mission is to highlight the power of media literacy and education and its essential role in education all across the country.

U.S. Media Literacy Week calls to attention media literacy education by bringing together hundreds of partners for events and activities around the country. The National Association for Media Literacy Education unites a community of Educators committed to advancing media literacy education as a leading voice convenor and resource for media literacy education. NAMLE aims to make media literacy highly valued and widely practiced as an essential life skill. NAMLE envisions a day when everyone in our nation and around the world possesses the ability to access analyze evaluate create and act using all forms of communication.

Michelle and Megan, happy Media Literacy Week and welcome to Penn State.

MICHELLE: thanks for having us

MEGAN: thank you

MATT: So I just want to start by asking you to tell me a little bit about about where the idea for Media Literacy Week came from.

MICHELLE: okay, so I'll, I'll take that one. I'll start with saying that the organization has been around in some formation since 1997, and in 2012 I was hired as the first kind of employee Executive Director, and I would say one of the most frequent questions I had from members of the organization was, “when are we going to do Media Literacy Week?” At that point Canada was successfully doing Media Literacy Week every year, and we were supporting their efforts, but it became so much of the conversation that this is something the US should do. We should have some initiative that really reaches from, coast to coast, and so, in 2015 we decided to see what would happen, and we created a website and a logo, and we said, “okay let's see,” and it was a really phenomenal response. We had, over 117 partners, and most of them we had never heard of before, which meant wow this this,, the US is so …much more, media literate than we even thought. You know all these organizations, all these universities doing it, and it's just grown from then.

MATT: And I know UNESCO has had one for a long time. Did it borrow somewhat from that from before Canada got it and brought, you brought it here?

MICHELLE: So UNESCO started the global media and information literacy week and they have, a resolution that it's October 24th to the 31st every year, and so the kind of national efforts have really kind of just supported the overall umbrella effort of UNESCO. I'm not sure exactly when UNESCO started, but it solidified, I think, the efforts around the world, really, to make this moment in time be Media Literacy Week. And now we know, obviously Canada -- Canada does it successfully every year. Australia, Brazil, so many people around the world under the global umbrella are celebrating Media Literacy Week this year .

MATT: Meg, as, as the education manager, what are some of the things that you tried to stand up that that you do during this week?

MEGAN: For me, I think, as a former educator, and somebody who also teaches a little bit right now, and Michelle, I I'm going to speak for you, I know she would agree with this, we really wanted it to be a space where educators felt, they could celebrate what they're already doing and then learn a little bit more, too. There's not a lot of professional development for educators in media literacy, and they're adding it on to the professional development they're already trying to do in their grade or their subject area, and so we wanted it to be a space where they could learn a little bit, refine their craft, but then also celebrate the things that they're doing in their classroom related to media. And I think it's been a really nice balance with that.

MATT: And have you found over time since it's been about a decade or so that you've been doing this or not quite a decade, but have you found that teachers are getting more savvy about media as their students are learning more with media?

MEGAN: I think they are. I think it's a little bit of a double-edged sword they're getting more savvy and yet it is changing so quickly, beyond the speed at which they can keep up and so I think the interest is higher than ever. I think some of the, the frustrations of wanting to, to keep up with their students, wanting to know more and be able to do more with it are also just high because teachers don't have enough hours in the day. And so we're trying to hit that balance for them of, keep helping them keep pace, providing a space for them to learn, and then also reassuring them that this is sort of a, a lifelong journey for everybody. And so however they're already doing that is something we can celebrate and build off of.

MATT: and do you find that, do you find there are certain issues that media literacy educators or educators in general are particularly worried about or particularly focused on?

MICHELLE: Well I think in general what, me to add on to what Meg said, is that it's very often just difficult to do everything a teacher needs to do on a daily, weekly, semester basis. Right? They have so much that they have to get done and so when it comes to media literacy, we definitely don't --it used to be where we would get maybe get a little push back, maybe get a little bit like, “oh I don't know I, I can't fit that in or,” --- but now people really get the importance. But it's just the fitting it in, and that's part of the work that Meg does and that NAMLE is trying to do in terms of,, how can we take what they're already doing and integrate these moments of media literacy throughout, and I think that, that teachers clearly understand how important these skills are, but it's, “How do I fit it into my subject area? How do I, handle the, the speed of change within these systems?” So it's difficult ,and then of course so much of what we see on media is politicized right so that becomes kind of a tricky, difficult navigation for teachers in some ways, and so we do work with them a little bit on how, how do you have difficult conversations, how can you have, still address the power that the media can have to persuade or manipulate and not trigger, really intense battles in the classroom. Like how can you focus on the learning and the skill building.

MATT: So this year for Media Literacy Week what are some of the things that you you all are are doing across the country?

MICHELLE: So we try, Media Literacy Week is really fun for us because it's the one time during the year that we can kind of try to do everything, and we really do try to do everything because media literacy is such a vast umbrella. So part of the planning starts with, “what are, the key topics? What are people thinking about? What are people talking about?” And so clearly artificial intelligence is on everyone's mind, mental health, digital wellness, democracy, all of these really huge, huge topics that fall under the media literacy umbrella.

So we have events we're doing an event at Thompson Reuters in New York with high school students on Friday, which is all about kind of the future of news AI journalism media literacy. We have panel about media literacy and democracy, we have a panel about civility online and digital wellness. We are doing book talks this year, which we're super excited about because there's so many amazing books on topics related to media literacy, and we have an opportunity to meet with authors. We're doing an event with AARP and Trend Micro about media literacy across generations, not just for young people. So we really try to cover a lot because it really is our most, public facing event to make sure people understand the depth of media literacy

MATT: Good. And so, those various constituencies you're an audiences you're talking about are, are diverse, and so do you try and find a way in with a piece of media for each one of these different audiences so they can understand the topic or the, so for the ARP, do you use the Lawrence Welk show on PBS or, or do you what, what's your way into these different audiences?

MICHELLE: You know, I think that people come for the, the topic right? This idea that ARP and Trend Micro who are doing work with older generations, just kind of putting inter, intersecting that with the work of media literacy seems to get people's attention. Interestingly we don't really always bring in media up top as much as it's, really focused on topic and content.

MEGAN: I think anymore, we're finding that we don't have, have to make the case anymore about why it matters or, or even, bring up a relevant example, which sounds silly to say. Why wouldn't you? But everybody is already so on board with that part of it that I think it's allowed us to kind of just jump into the tools and the skills and the mindsets a little more quickly and everybody's just kind of ready, they're there at the table ready for those conversations.

MATT: Right, so students the young generation that you're trying to meet one of one of the things we've been focused on when we talk about news media literacy is news avoidance. People that when they turn on the media it makes them anxious and so as a response to that in terms of kind of cultivate wellness amongst themselves. They just don't want to watch. Is this something that you all have have, have heard folks talk about or, or are spending some time thinking about?

MEGAN: Yeah I, I think that I know for the students that I teach it's really common for them it's even common for me I mean we do this work all day long every day. I, I teach media law and ethics and you get to a point where you have to you have to disconnect and so a lot of the work that we do when we talk to anybody, but especially young people, is you're playing the long game with media consumption and with building these habits and there, there's always an appropriate point to step out and to have a balance in your life and to focus on those things. And to, to see what that balance is. Is a lot of trial and error and, so we really want students to think through sort of this balance of: we need to know what's happening in the world and we need to care and be curious and be democratically engaged, but we need to do that in the context of our whole life. And I a lot of times say it's kind of, you're going to have to eat your vegetables your whole life. Sad to say we're going to be eating broccoli our whole lives, at some point, and so you have to figure out the balance, and what's going to work, and that's not one class, it's not one lesson. It's kind of, that lifetime development.

MICHELLE: mhmm, I always find too that I get this with my social media feed and this is the struggle is that when you go, when you pick up your phone and you have a moment and you want to check Instagram or TikTok, you don't, oh, you don't get the choice of whether you're going to see, I want to see what my son's doing and what my daughter's doing and their friends and my sister, but then in between that it's the New York Times and, and when, when there's crisis in the world, which is very prevalent right now, it is, it is a really difficult process to go from a funny, puppy video to the New York Times covering Israel and Gaza. That is, our brains are not ready for that type of, of noise, and so I find that then it becomes, do I check it all, but I do want to see some of it and then it it has to be you have to be so deliberate some of the time but, there are times where a lot of times where I go on social media and I don't want to see the news feed that is in there and it's impossible not to because that's how my feet is curated so I think it's a really difficult time to navigate information.

MEGAN: And that's part of the media literacy part too, if I can jump in on that of, tailoring what you're trying to do with, the tool right? I mean, a lot of us use social media for news but it's sort of akin to using a sledge hammer to hang a picture. It's often not the right tool for it and so I think part of getting past news avoidance is also saying, I kind of have to choose a different tool or I have to, have some different habits because the thing that's making me avoid news is often the thing that's, not great at delivering it anyway. So we kind of try to shift some of those, behaviors.

MATT: Yeah we we have a guy here on the faculty who's been studying social science in from a social science perspective the ways in which people rely on the feed as opposed to being more deliberate right? So much content being bombarded at our eyeballs all day that we just kind of trust the machine it's going to give us what we need to do he calls it the “News Finds Me Mentality,” right? And that so much of the way that people use media is kind of based on what's the feed that's right for me, how do I organize my feed? Although I did see something the other day which was hopeful in a sense, which is that more and more people are starting the day from a platform, right? From a major news source platform or something that they're somehow realizing that the addiction factor on a social media is…doesn't give them the agency they want to have on it.

MEGAN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that we always have there's, a slingshot effect I think with any kind of new media and, the reaction is, so fast and furious and fierce that we have to, take a moment and then realize, what should we actually be using this for. And that reflection part of is it working for me is just so critical and I think what's tough for people is the rate that we have to ask that question is exhausting and it really is and, there's no easy way around that either but, being conscious of that cycle can be really helpful.

MATT: You were saying before that there isn't a lot of there's not a lot of set curriculum on this. Have you been working with, say, accrediting agencies or with states or federal government to work on getting a more standardized curriculum in relation to this.

MICHELLE: So there is a lot of work being done on in the legislative space so a lot of policy state by state policy driven efforts. And there is, believe it or not, an incredible amount of curriculum incredible amount of resources and just the work that's being done either by educators or community organizations, nonprofits, to develop materials, so we have found that there's a plethora of materials, but not a strong distribution and training model, and that's kind of where we're trying to put a lot of our energy. But the conversation around state standards and mandates and all that stuff is very present in our community right now. What will work and how does it integrate with the other subject areas? So looking at standards in, ELA and in social studies and Science. And how that intersects with media literacy is really important because if we are going to commit to media literacy skills being something that should be taught throughout the curriculum in a school day, then we have to be prepared to look at standards in all subject areas. So I would say there's some really interesting models of scaling that are happening. Interesting even we're having this event, as I mentioned, about media literacy and democracy, and one of the groups in New York state called Democracy Ready New York has just put together kind of a standards package for New York state around media literacy so we are very much, keeping an eye on these state by state efforts and to see how we can translate them to other states and how we should be thinking about them on a national level

MATT: I see you mentioned that you're having both the, well, working with a New York democracy and then you have a workshop this week related to democracy as well. So how do you see the relationship between media literacy and democracy?

MICHELLE: want to take that one?

MEGAN: Essential non-negotiable a basic human right? I think what we're seeing more and more is that we used to imagine in sort of the early days of media and, the Golden Age of Journalism that truth would emerge right from this marketplace of ideas and the marketplace is saturated. and for some people, it feels, chaos and there's it's just not working anymore right and so, media literacy is an opportunity to remind people that, what we watch matters. What we consume matters. How informed we are about the world matters. But we know to do those things is increasingly challenging, and so I think it's a way for us to support people. I think through that and I say people but, us, too, right? It's just as hard for us to do those things and it's no longer something of, what if it needs to happen, it's just when and how often can we fit it in because there's so much at stake mis- and disinformation is a really large part of what we do. Right now fake news has become such a buzzword but it's increasingly the first thing people think of when they think of media literacy.

MICHELLE: Yeah, and I think it also just, the idea that a strong democracy has within it informed citizens right that's a basic idea and so struggling with that idea of what does it mean to be an informed citizen today. I think, with the speed and the quantity of information I think there's a lot of assumption that we're more informed than we have been, but I would argue that that's actually not the case and that it's actually that much harder to truly be informed and knowledgeable. And so thinking about that connection of what does it mean to be an active responsible productive citizen in the world in a democracy, you need to have, you need to understand information, right? And so media literacy allows us to teach that.

MATT: Right, and not only to teach, but…one thing I'm always --because I teach a class on media and democracy-- and one of the frames that I used to think about this is, “What is getting in the way of us practicing democracy?” So not only the kind of “Am I informed?” but “Am I able to have a conversation with other people without screaming at them? Am I on a media feed that makes me so upset that I can't have a conversation? That and so, making people aware of where their media habits make them less capable of participating in a democracy, kind of defined as the system that brings in a range of experience and kind of brings them into conversation. That's kind of my ideal for democracy, and media can play a huge role in either fostering that or making it harder.

MEGAN: Right, and that's one area where I think media literacy education sometimes, if it's fair to say, even struggles a little bit because, what you just said about, what we consume and does it make us more or less capable. And so a lot of media literacy education can look only, labeling news, left or right, or publications republican or democrat, and that can sometimes just, exacerbate those issues, and so we need media literacy practices that kind of go beyond that. And they're helpful entry points, right? It's helpful for people to kind of put a a name or a label or an understanding to what they're experiencing, but then we also have to do even more media literacy practice to move beyond, sort of these, two sort of polarized options to get to that type of dialogue and discourse.

MATT: Yeah so what is making you, so that it's also the experience what's the feeling you have, the formerly -- I your this morning, the platform –

MEGAN: the artist for formally known as Twitter.

MATT: Yeah, I've had to stop looking at that because within five minutes I would always just be, upset, right? And to know that that's not by chance, right? That these are these are features of the algorithm that realize that the more psychologically kind of upset we are, the more we're going to engage with something, right?

MEGAN: The longer we stay on it, the more eyes, the more we can sell the ad money for the exposure for.

MATT: So to make people aware of where those feelings are coming from which is the business model in some senses.

MICHELLE: I do think that one thing that we have found interesting and I always say that, prior to 2016 it was very difficult to get anyone to to talk to me about media literacy and there was a lot of cold calling it was, hey I need, it took me 20 minutes just to get them to, perk up and then after 2016 it just became, just a search for solutions and media literacy kept coming up. And those searches, right? But I think what I recognize is, that was 2016, it's 2023 so in seven years we have really made a lot of progress in our consciousness about communication systems.

When the Cambridge Analytica breach became public in 2016, there was a lot of -wait a minute, Facebook, wait Facebook takes my data? What is that? And now, we are, we're just so far beyond on that we're so, words, algorithm and filter bubbles and echo chambers are now being discussed not in our conversations, but in cultural conversations. So I do think that everyone might not be terming it media literacy, but there's a consciousness to the way these systems work that I feel very positive about because then you can have the how conversation, “okay how are we going to make sure people know what to do with this information?” but, not that long ago, people didn't, even couldn't, even have a conversation about why they see, what they see in their social media feeds, and I do think that, we are a little, we are more knowledgeable than we were, and that has to be a good question, a good, a good, positive progress. At least we're asking the right questions we might not have all the answers yet but at least we're in the process of asking the right questions.

MATT: Starting to share a vocabulary about it, right? Because that's one of the issues that we share, as as people who are interested in in media literacy is the that what is the shared reality right what is the it used to be that, there were three news channels one, four news channels there was a half hour every night and people shared the reality of kind of what was said across them and now you don't have any of that sense that people actually share a life world, that might be similar so finding those that vocabulary that even people who might be on different sides of political aisle or the algorithm sifted over here or over here can have a vocabulary that can used to talk about that I think that's really –

MICHELLE: Yeah, I think about just the speed, my son is 21 so, in the course of his life right he was born before Facebook and YouTube, before these platforms were what they are. And if you think about what these 20 years have been, if you had, predicted: in 20 years human population, we are going to change the entire communication system, we are going to turn it on its head, and we're going to make all these different rules and different - It isn't surprising that we're struggling, this is a really difficult thing that we have to navigate, and I think it would it, we would do well if we could be a little more patient with each other and with the amount of change that we've had to handle over that course of those two decades so I feel like, know really, should we be surprised with where we are right now because there's no way we could have kept up, right? So now we have to take a step back and do something different.

MATT: Yeah, so I was going to say one of one of the things that we're we're working on are these solutions to this you're saying, the how to. What are some of the things that you're trying to stress to people across these various audiences that you deal with? What are some of the howto takeaways that you give people?

MEGAN: I think what one thing that I always say to people is a couple things: one, you have permission not to engage and try to fact check slash care about everything because a lot of people feel, it's an all or nothing game and, there's just no way to make that work so one is, permission not to do it all. And then I think for people in the education space rarely is there not a media literacy moment when we when we talk about what textbooks are chosen or we talk about who we bring in to sit in chairs and talk to people, in front of cameras. These are all times where we can ask questions about that and about the impact of that on us, and I think looking for those things in our daily life is just an easy way to kind of keep those skills sharp so that, when it comes to something you're really interested in, you are already asking the question, and you can get there, to those media literacy skills, a little bit faster. And that's just a key emphasis, I mean it's just everywhere, and you don't have to be in a classroom to be practicing media literacy, the moment I start scrolling in the morning, I should be practicing that, right? And so building those chops so to speak, is the emphasis I think.

MICHELLE: Yeah, I think it's also: where can we build in agency, our own agency, wherever right? I'm always, wait a minute I don't have to follow this account anymore cuz the last 5 days every time I look at this account it makes me mad, maybe that's a sign that I should unfollow or I keep seeing this ad, maybe I need to tell Instagram that I don't want to see that ad anymore and that there is some agency, it obviously it's very hard for an individual person to fight a multi-billion dollar corporation on a daily basis, but where can we find our agency with who we follow the decisions we make on what to share and that you you can have you can make some choices. I think is really important to remember.

MATT: Yeah I find myself in this paradoxical position that though I teach media studies and think about these things, that some of some of the things I keep wanting to remind people is: talk to people, right? Get off the media, put the screen down do something where you're not too screening, right? Those are also media literacy moments, to think about how these things are working on us.

MEGAN: Yeah that tension of, our agency, and then you remember that: I can also learn things by talking to the person. And being in community with people, and we have a lot of primary sources in our life that we can actually learn some things from. I think is a really good reminder.

MATT: So what are some future things that you all would, to do with NAMLE?

MICHELLE: So we want to change the world and build a stronger democracy. I mean, ultimately, it's no exaggeration. We want media literacy education to be an essential part of education and life today. We believe it's essential for people to be media literate so we are looking at different ways to expand professional development opportunities for teachers, to get more resources into teachers hands, to look at our role as a national leader. What is our role in bringing the community together and building a really, really robust impactful effective network to spread the word on media literacy? Wo we look at various ways to scale that, we continue to do our conference which is a premier media literacy conference for educators, bringing more people and more eyeballs to U.S. Media Literacy Week, creating more opportunity for teachers from different subject areas. We host a National Media Literacy Alliance of membership organizations for teachers so it's social studies, math, science, journalism, all of them under the umbrella of media literacy. So a lot of what we're doing is: how do we take what is happening and just continue to amplify it and scale it?

MATT: Well, if there's ever anything that we can do here at Penn State to help you with that task, please let us know, and we can't thank you enough for sitting down and talking with us, and also bringing the kickoff to the week.

MICHELL: Yeah so exciting to be –

MEGAN: Thank you.

MICHELLE: Thank you.

MATT: Thanks so much.

MATT: Hello, I'm Matt Jordan, Director of Penn State's News Literacy Initiative, and host of News Over Noise. On this special U.S. Media Literacy Week edition of News Over Noise we'll be talking with two people from the National Association for Media Literacy Education who helped direct this week. NAMLE Executive Director Michelle Ciulla Lipkin and NAMLE Education Manager Megan Fromm. The annual U.S. Media Literacy Week is hosted by the National Association for Media Literacy Education, NAMLE, and the mission is to highlight the power of media literacy and education and its essential role in education all across the country.

U.S. Media Literacy Week calls to attention media literacy education by bringing together hundreds of partners for events and activities around the country. The National Association for Media Literacy Education unites a community of Educators committed to advancing media literacy education as a leading voice convenor and resource for media literacy education. NAMLE aims to make media literacy highly valued and widely practiced as an essential life skill. NAMLE envisions a day when everyone in our nation and around the world possesses the ability to access analyze evaluate create and act using all forms of communication.

Michelle and Megan, happy Media Literacy Week and welcome to Penn State.

MICHELLE: thanks for having us

MEGAN: thank you

MATT: So I just want to start by asking you to tell me a little bit about about where the idea for Media Literacy Week came from.

MICHELLE: okay, so I'll, I'll take that one. I'll start with saying that the organization has been around in some formation since 1997, and in 2012 I was hired as the first kind of employee Executive Director, and I would say one of the most frequent questions I had from members of the organization was, “when are we going to do Media Literacy Week?” At that point Canada was successfully doing Media Literacy Week every year, and we were supporting their efforts, but it became so much of the conversation that this is something the US should do. We should have some initiative that really reaches from, coast to coast, and so, in 2015 we decided to see what would happen, and we created a website and a logo, and we said, “okay let's see,” and it was a really phenomenal response. We had, over 117 partners, and most of them we had never heard of before, which meant wow this this,, the US is so …much more, media literate than we even thought. You know all these organizations, all these universities doing it, and it's just grown from then.

MATT: And I know UNESCO has had one for a long time. Did it borrow somewhat from that from before Canada got it and brought, you brought it here?

MICHELLE: So UNESCO started the global media and information literacy week and they have, a resolution that it's October 24th to the 31st every year, and so the kind of national efforts have really kind of just supported the overall umbrella effort of UNESCO. I'm not sure exactly when UNESCO started, but it solidified, I think, the efforts around the world, really, to make this moment in time be Media Literacy Week. And now we know, obviously Canada -- Canada does it successfully every year. Australia, Brazil, so many people around the world under the global umbrella are celebrating Media Literacy Week this year .

MATT: Meg, as, as the education manager, what are some of the things that you tried to stand up that that you do during this week?

MEGAN: For me, I think, as a former educator, and somebody who also teaches a little bit right now, and Michelle, I I'm going to speak for you, I know she would agree with this, we really wanted it to be a space where educators felt, they could celebrate what they're already doing and then learn a little bit more, too. There's not a lot of professional development for educators in media literacy, and they're adding it on to the professional development they're already trying to do in their grade or their subject area, and so we wanted it to be a space where they could learn a little bit, refine their craft, but then also celebrate the things that they're doing in their classroom related to media. And I think it's been a really nice balance with that.

MATT: And have you found over time since it's been about a decade or so that you've been doing this or not quite a decade, but have you found that teachers are getting more savvy about media as their students are learning more with media?

MEGAN: I think they are. I think it's a little bit of a double-edged sword they're getting more savvy and yet it is changing so quickly, beyond the speed at which they can keep up and so I think the interest is higher than ever. I think some of the, the frustrations of wanting to, to keep up with their students, wanting to know more and be able to do more with it are also just high because teachers don't have enough hours in the day. And so we're trying to hit that balance for them of, keep helping them keep pace, providing a space for them to learn, and then also reassuring them that this is sort of a, a lifelong journey for everybody. And so however they're already doing that is something we can celebrate and build off of.

MATT: and do you find that, do you find there are certain issues that media literacy educators or educators in general are particularly worried about or particularly focused on?

MICHELLE: Well I think in general what, me to add on to what Meg said, is that it's very often just difficult to do everything a teacher needs to do on a daily, weekly, semester basis. Right? They have so much that they have to get done and so when it comes to media literacy, we definitely don't --it used to be where we would get maybe get a little push back, maybe get a little bit like, “oh I don't know I, I can't fit that in or,” --- but now people really get the importance. But it's just the fitting it in, and that's part of the work that Meg does and that NAMLE is trying to do in terms of,, how can we take what they're already doing and integrate these moments of media literacy throughout, and I think that, that teachers clearly understand how important these skills are, but it's, “How do I fit it into my subject area? How do I, handle the, the speed of change within these systems?” So it's difficult ,and then of course so much of what we see on media is politicized right so that becomes kind of a tricky, difficult navigation for teachers in some ways, and so we do work with them a little bit on how, how do you have difficult conversations, how can you have, still address the power that the media can have to persuade or manipulate and not trigger, really intense battles in the classroom. Like how can you focus on the learning and the skill building.

MATT: So this year for Media Literacy Week what are some of the things that you you all are are doing across the country?

MICHELLE: So we try, Media Literacy Week is really fun for us because it's the one time during the year that we can kind of try to do everything, and we really do try to do everything because media literacy is such a vast umbrella. So part of the planning starts with, “what are, the key topics? What are people thinking about? What are people talking about?” And so clearly artificial intelligence is on everyone's mind, mental health, digital wellness, democracy, all of these really huge, huge topics that fall under the media literacy umbrella.

So we have events we're doing an event at Thompson Reuters in New York with high school students on Friday, which is all about kind of the future of news AI journalism media literacy. We have panel about media literacy and democracy, we have a panel about civility online and digital wellness. We are doing book talks this year, which we're super excited about because there's so many amazing books on topics related to media literacy, and we have an opportunity to meet with authors. We're doing an event with AARP and Trend Micro about media literacy across generations, not just for young people. So we really try to cover a lot because it really is our most, public facing event to make sure people understand the depth of media literacy

MATT: Good. And so, those various constituencies you're an audiences you're talking about are, are diverse, and so do you try and find a way in with a piece of media for each one of these different audiences so they can understand the topic or the, so for the ARP, do you use the Lawrence Welk show on PBS or, or do you what, what's your way into these different audiences?

MICHELLE: You know, I think that people come for the, the topic right? This idea that ARP and Trend Micro who are doing work with older generations, just kind of putting inter, intersecting that with the work of media literacy seems to get people's attention. Interestingly we don't really always bring in media up top as much as it's, really focused on topic and content.

MEGAN: I think anymore, we're finding that we don't have, have to make the case anymore about why it matters or, or even, bring up a relevant example, which sounds silly to say. Why wouldn't you? But everybody is already so on board with that part of it that I think it's allowed us to kind of just jump into the tools and the skills and the mindsets a little more quickly and everybody's just kind of ready, they're there at the table ready for those conversations.

MATT: Right, so students the young generation that you're trying to meet one of one of the things we've been focused on when we talk about news media literacy is news avoidance. People that when they turn on the media it makes them anxious and so as a response to that in terms of kind of cultivate wellness amongst themselves. They just don't want to watch. Is this something that you all have have, have heard folks talk about or, or are spending some time thinking about?

MEGAN: Yeah I, I think that I know for the students that I teach it's really common for them it's even common for me I mean we do this work all day long every day. I, I teach media law and ethics and you get to a point where you have to you have to disconnect and so a lot of the work that we do when we talk to anybody, but especially young people, is you're playing the long game with media consumption and with building these habits and there, there's always an appropriate point to step out and to have a balance in your life and to focus on those things. And to, to see what that balance is. Is a lot of trial and error and, so we really want students to think through sort of this balance of: we need to know what's happening in the world and we need to care and be curious and be democratically engaged, but we need to do that in the context of our whole life. And I a lot of times say it's kind of, you're going to have to eat your vegetables your whole life. Sad to say we're going to be eating broccoli our whole lives, at some point, and so you have to figure out the balance, and what's going to work, and that's not one class, it's not one lesson. It's kind of, that lifetime development.

MICHELLE: mhmm, I always find too that I get this with my social media feed and this is the struggle is that when you go, when you pick up your phone and you have a moment and you want to check Instagram or TikTok, you don't, oh, you don't get the choice of whether you're going to see, I want to see what my son's doing and what my daughter's doing and their friends and my sister, but then in between that it's the New York Times and, and when, when there's crisis in the world, which is very prevalent right now, it is, it is a really difficult process to go from a funny, puppy video to the New York Times covering Israel and Gaza. That is, our brains are not ready for that type of, of noise, and so I find that then it becomes, do I check it all, but I do want to see some of it and then it it has to be you have to be so deliberate some of the time but, there are times where a lot of times where I go on social media and I don't want to see the news feed that is in there and it's impossible not to because that's how my feet is curated so I think it's a really difficult time to navigate information.

MEGAN: And that's part of the media literacy part too, if I can jump in on that of, tailoring what you're trying to do with, the tool right? I mean, a lot of us use social media for news but it's sort of akin to using a sledge hammer to hang a picture. It's often not the right tool for it and so I think part of getting past news avoidance is also saying, I kind of have to choose a different tool or I have to, have some different habits because the thing that's making me avoid news is often the thing that's, not great at delivering it anyway. So we kind of try to shift some of those, behaviors.

MATT: Yeah we we have a guy here on the faculty who's been studying social science in from a social science perspective the ways in which people rely on the feed as opposed to being more deliberate right? So much content being bombarded at our eyeballs all day that we just kind of trust the machine it's going to give us what we need to do he calls it the “News Finds Me Mentality,” right? And that so much of the way that people use media is kind of based on what's the feed that's right for me, how do I organize my feed? Although I did see something the other day which was hopeful in a sense, which is that more and more people are starting the day from a platform, right? From a major news source platform or something that they're somehow realizing that the addiction factor on a social media is…doesn't give them the agency they want to have on it.

MEGAN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that we always have there's, a slingshot effect I think with any kind of new media and, the reaction is, so fast and furious and fierce that we have to, take a moment and then realize, what should we actually be using this for. And that reflection part of is it working for me is just so critical and I think what's tough for people is the rate that we have to ask that question is exhausting and it really is and, there's no easy way around that either but, being conscious of that cycle can be really helpful.

MATT: You were saying before that there isn't a lot of there's not a lot of set curriculum on this. Have you been working with, say, accrediting agencies or with states or federal government to work on getting a more standardized curriculum in relation to this.

MICHELLE: So there is a lot of work being done on in the legislative space so a lot of policy state by state policy driven efforts. And there is, believe it or not, an incredible amount of curriculum incredible amount of resources and just the work that's being done either by educators or community organizations, nonprofits, to develop materials, so we have found that there's a plethora of materials, but not a strong distribution and training model, and that's kind of where we're trying to put a lot of our energy. But the conversation around state standards and mandates and all that stuff is very present in our community right now. What will work and how does it integrate with the other subject areas? So looking at standards in, ELA and in social studies and Science. And how that intersects with media literacy is really important because if we are going to commit to media literacy skills being something that should be taught throughout the curriculum in a school day, then we have to be prepared to look at standards in all subject areas. So I would say there's some really interesting models of scaling that are happening. Interesting even we're having this event, as I mentioned, about media literacy and democracy, and one of the groups in New York state called Democracy Ready New York has just put together kind of a standards package for New York state around media literacy so we are very much, keeping an eye on these state by state efforts and to see how we can translate them to other states and how we should be thinking about them on a national level

MATT: I see you mentioned that you're having both the, well, working with a New York democracy and then you have a workshop this week related to democracy as well. So how do you see the relationship between media literacy and democracy?

MICHELLE: want to take that one?

MEGAN: Essential non-negotiable a basic human right? I think what we're seeing more and more is that we used to imagine in sort of the early days of media and, the Golden Age of Journalism that truth would emerge right from this marketplace of ideas and the marketplace is saturated. and for some people, it feels, chaos and there's it's just not working anymore right and so, media literacy is an opportunity to remind people that, what we watch matters. What we consume matters. How informed we are about the world matters. But we know to do those things is increasingly challenging, and so I think it's a way for us to support people. I think through that and I say people but, us, too, right? It's just as hard for us to do those things and it's no longer something of, what if it needs to happen, it's just when and how often can we fit it in because there's so much at stake mis- and disinformation is a really large part of what we do. Right now fake news has become such a buzzword but it's increasingly the first thing people think of when they think of media literacy.

MICHELLE: Yeah, and I think it also just, the idea that a strong democracy has within it informed citizens right that's a basic idea and so struggling with that idea of what does it mean to be an informed citizen today. I think, with the speed and the quantity of information I think there's a lot of assumption that we're more informed than we have been, but I would argue that that's actually not the case and that it's actually that much harder to truly be informed and knowledgeable. And so thinking about that connection of what does it mean to be an active responsible productive citizen in the world in a democracy, you need to have, you need to understand information, right? And so media literacy allows us to teach that.

MATT: Right, and not only to teach, but…one thing I'm always --because I teach a class on media and democracy-- and one of the frames that I used to think about this is, “What is getting in the way of us practicing democracy?” So not only the kind of “Am I informed?” but “Am I able to have a conversation with other people without screaming at them? Am I on a media feed that makes me so upset that I can't have a conversation? That and so, making people aware of where their media habits make them less capable of participating in a democracy, kind of defined as the system that brings in a range of experience and kind of brings them into conversation. That's kind of my ideal for democracy, and media can play a huge role in either fostering that or making it harder.

MEGAN: Right, and that's one area where I think media literacy education sometimes, if it's fair to say, even struggles a little bit because, what you just said about, what we consume and does it make us more or less capable. And so a lot of media literacy education can look only, labeling news, left or right, or publications republican or democrat, and that can sometimes just, exacerbate those issues, and so we need media literacy practices that kind of go beyond that. And they're helpful entry points, right? It's helpful for people to kind of put a a name or a label or an understanding to what they're experiencing, but then we also have to do even more media literacy practice to move beyond, sort of these, two sort of polarized options to get to that type of dialogue and discourse.

MATT: Yeah so what is making you, so that it's also the experience what's the feeling you have, the formerly -- I your this morning, the platform –

MEGAN: the artist for formally known as Twitter.

MATT: Yeah, I've had to stop looking at that because within five minutes I would always just be, upset, right? And to know that that's not by chance, right? That these are these are features of the algorithm that realize that the more psychologically kind of upset we are, the more we're going to engage with something, right?

MEGAN: The longer we stay on it, the more eyes, the more we can sell the ad money for the exposure for.

MATT: So to make people aware of where those feelings are coming from which is the business model in some senses.

MICHELLE: I do think that one thing that we have found interesting and I always say that, prior to 2016 it was very difficult to get anyone to to talk to me about media literacy and there was a lot of cold calling it was, hey I need, it took me 20 minutes just to get them to, perk up and then after 2016 it just became, just a search for solutions and media literacy kept coming up. And those searches, right? But I think what I recognize is, that was 2016, it's 2023 so in seven years we have really made a lot of progress in our consciousness about communication systems.

When the Cambridge Analytica breach became public in 2016, there was a lot of -wait a minute, Facebook, wait Facebook takes my data? What is that? And now, we are, we're just so far beyond on that we're so, words, algorithm and filter bubbles and echo chambers are now being discussed not in our conversations, but in cultural conversations. So I do think that everyone might not be terming it media literacy, but there's a consciousness to the way these systems work that I feel very positive about because then you can have the how conversation, “okay how are we going to make sure people know what to do with this information?” but, not that long ago, people didn't, even couldn't, even have a conversation about why they see, what they see in their social media feeds, and I do think that, we are a little, we are more knowledgeable than we were, and that has to be a good question, a good, a good, positive progress. At least we're asking the right questions we might not have all the answers yet but at least we're in the process of asking the right questions.

MATT: Starting to share a vocabulary about it, right? Because that's one of the issues that we share, as as people who are interested in in media literacy is the that what is the shared reality right what is the it used to be that, there were three news channels one, four news channels there was a half hour every night and people shared the reality of kind of what was said across them and now you don't have any of that sense that people actually share a life world, that might be similar so finding those that vocabulary that even people who might be on different sides of political aisle or the algorithm sifted over here or over here can have a vocabulary that can used to talk about that I think that's really –

MICHELLE: Yeah, I think about just the speed, my son is 21 so, in the course of his life right he was born before Facebook and YouTube, before these platforms were what they are. And if you think about what these 20 years have been, if you had, predicted: in 20 years human population, we are going to change the entire communication system, we are going to turn it on its head, and we're going to make all these different rules and different - It isn't surprising that we're struggling, this is a really difficult thing that we have to navigate, and I think it would it, we would do well if we could be a little more patient with each other and with the amount of change that we've had to handle over that course of those two decades so I feel like, know really, should we be surprised with where we are right now because there's no way we could have kept up, right? So now we have to take a step back and do something different.

MATT: Yeah, so I was going to say one of one of the things that we're we're working on are these solutions to this you're saying, the how to. What are some of the things that you're trying to stress to people across these various audiences that you deal with? What are some of the howto takeaways that you give people?

MEGAN: I think what one thing that I always say to people is a couple things: one, you have permission not to engage and try to fact check slash care about everything because a lot of people feel, it's an all or nothing game and, there's just no way to make that work so one is, permission not to do it all. And then I think for people in the education space rarely is there not a media literacy moment when we when we talk about what textbooks are chosen or we talk about who we bring in to sit in chairs and talk to people, in front of cameras. These are all times where we can ask questions about that and about the impact of that on us, and I think looking for those things in our daily life is just an easy way to kind of keep those skills sharp so that, when it comes to something you're really interested in, you are already asking the question, and you can get there, to those media literacy skills, a little bit faster. And that's just a key emphasis, I mean it's just everywhere, and you don't have to be in a classroom to be practicing media literacy, the moment I start scrolling in the morning, I should be practicing that, right? And so building those chops so to speak, is the emphasis I think.

MICHELLE: Yeah, I think it's also: where can we build in agency, our own agency, wherever right? I'm always, wait a minute I don't have to follow this account anymore cuz the last 5 days every time I look at this account it makes me mad, maybe that's a sign that I should unfollow or I keep seeing this ad, maybe I need to tell Instagram that I don't want to see that ad anymore and that there is some agency, it obviously it's very hard for an individual person to fight a multi-billion dollar corporation on a daily basis, but where can we find our agency with who we follow the decisions we make on what to share and that you you can have you can make some choices. I think is really important to remember.

MATT: Yeah I find myself in this paradoxical position that though I teach media studies and think about these things, that some of some of the things I keep wanting to remind people is: talk to people, right? Get off the media, put the screen down do something where you're not too screening, right? Those are also media literacy moments, to think about how these things are working on us.

MEGAN: Yeah that tension of, our agency, and then you remember that: I can also learn things by talking to the person. And being in community with people, and we have a lot of primary sources in our life that we can actually learn some things from. I think is a really good reminder.

MATT: So what are some future things that you all would, to do with NAMLE?

MICHELLE: So we want to change the world and build a stronger democracy. I mean, ultimately, it's no exaggeration. We want media literacy education to be an essential part of education and life today. We believe it's essential for people to be media literate so we are looking at different ways to expand professional development opportunities for teachers, to get more resources into teachers hands, to look at our role as a national leader. What is our role in bringing the community together and building a really, really robust impactful effective network to spread the word on media literacy? Wo we look at various ways to scale that, we continue to do our conference which is a premier media literacy conference for educators, bringing more people and more eyeballs to U.S. Media Literacy Week, creating more opportunity for teachers from different subject areas. We host a National Media Literacy Alliance of membership organizations for teachers so it's social studies, math, science, journalism, all of them under the umbrella of media literacy. So a lot of what we're doing is: how do we take what is happening and just continue to amplify it and scale it?

MATT: Well, if there's ever anything that we can do here at Penn State to help you with that task, please let us know, and we can't thank you enough for sitting down and talking with us, and also bringing the kickoff to the week.

MICHELL: Yeah so exciting to be –

MEGAN: Thank you.

MICHELLE: Thank you.

MATT: Thanks so much.